When we sat down to talk, John Mathieson and just returned from shooting Gladiator 2 with Ridley Scott in Malta. He was part of the orignal team, having wenty-five years earlier shot the original iconic film.
Afer that first collaboration he was the cinematographer for numerous films for Scott, including Kingdom of Heaven, Hannibal and Robin Hood. He also photographed the superhero film closest to being art, the Wolverine film 'Logan'. Other projects include The Man From UNCLE with Guy Ritchie, Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness with Sam Raimi, and many, many more.
John began in documentary and pop videos, and in talking with him this conversation became a lesson in how an Oscar-nominated cinematographer thinks; he opens up about originality in filmmaking and the pressures that Hollywood puts on the process as it actually happens on set.
You'll also hear his opinion about when to move the camera and the power of editing to tell your story, and don't miss how he describes shooting on set with Ridley Scott and how and why it has changed since they first worked together.
While not directly related to documentary making there are tips about shooting your own films, shooting for the edit, capturing atmosphere on your locations and a lesson in his influences as a young filmmaker in the 1980s that made him one of the most revered cinematographes in the business.
John Mathieson at IMDB
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Incidental music composed by Birger Clausen
When we sat down to talk, John Mathieson and just returned from shooting Gladiator 2 with Ridley Scott in Malta. He was part of the orignal team, having wenty-five years earlier shot the original iconic film.
Afer that first collaboration he was the cinematographer for numerous films for Scott, including Kingdom of Heaven, Hannibal and Robin Hood. He also photographed the superhero film closest to being art, the Wolverine film 'Logan'. Other projects include The Man From UNCLE with Guy Ritchie, Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness with Sam Raimi, and many, many more.
John began in documentary and pop videos, and in talking with him this conversation became a lesson in how an Oscar-nominated cinematographer thinks; he opens up about originality in filmmaking and the pressures that Hollywood puts on the process as it actually happens on set.
You'll also hear his opinion about when to move the camera and the power of editing to tell your story, and don't miss how he describes shooting on set with Ridley Scott and how and why it has changed since they first worked together.
While not directly related to documentary making there are tips about shooting your own films, shooting for the edit, capturing atmosphere on your locations and a lesson in his influences as a young filmmaker in the 1980s that made him one of the most revered cinematographes in the business.
John Mathieson at IMDB
Are you interested in joining the DocFix program and working with Nigel?
Get started with our complimentary case study that shows you how the method is used in high-profile documentaries and to see if you are a good fit for what we do and how we work.
Instagram: @nigel.levy.stories
Facebook: Nigel Levy - The Doc Fix
Incidental music composed by Birger Clausen
[00:00:00] Hi, I'm Nigel Levy, and this is the DocFix documentary storytelling podcast. John Mathison is one of the most acclaimed contemporary cinematographers. When we sat down, he'd just returned from shooting Gladiator Two with Ridley Scott in Malta. 25 years earlier, John shot the original gladiator. In between, he’s [00:00:20] photographed numerous films for Scott, including Kingdom of Heaven, Hannibal and Robin Hood. He also photographed the closest superhero films have come to art. With the Wolverine film, Logan. The man from Uncle
Dr. [00:00:33] Strange and many, many more. What this conversation ended up as is a lesson in how a multiple Oscar-nominated [00:00:40] cinematographer thinks. We talk about originality and filmmaking and the pressures that Hollywood puts on the process as it actually happens on set. You'll also hear his opinion about when to move the camera and the power of editing to tell your story. And don't miss how he describes shooting on set with Ridley Scott. And how [00:01:00] and why it has changed since they first worked together. And while I have you, please subscribe.
[00:01:05] If you want to know when the next episode is going to merge. If you want to find out more about me and how I work with people on their documentary storytelling skills at the doc fix, you can go to apply.thedocfix.com. Of course, there are details [00:01:20] of the show notes at the end of this podcast. So now here's my conversation with John Mathison.
[00:01:26] Nigel: John? Nice to see you, of course. you've just come back from doing Gladiator again.
[00:01:31] John Mathieson: Yes. What was the experience like
[00:01:33] Nigel: of revisiting something like that?
[00:01:34] John Mathieson: walking back on the set, because they built it exactly how it was, You know, it wasn't like you [00:01:40] never went away.
[00:01:42] John Mathieson: But when you know, I'd go up there and look at things in my own time and wander through these spaces. And it was like an odd dream that hadn't finished or something.
[00:01:54] John Mathieson: Again, I don't know what sort of film we've made now, years, [00:02:00] whatever it is, nearly, I think. You should be more experienced, you should know. It was a different film, a different approach, different tastes these days of what a film should be.
[00:02:10] John Mathieson: Even if you try to stay true to something, there's all these other filmmakers, and the whole taste moves this way, and you get pushed that way. So it obviously if we are making it [00:02:20] straight on the back of the other 1 25 years ago, like the continuing natures of Maximus in the underworld or the over, wherever he goes to Ellucian, it would be very different. To, to that 25 year gap. So things are different now than they were 25 years ago.
How are you [00:02:36] Nigel: affected by. Current trends. When you [00:02:40] approach a story, when you approach a film, do you try and just block that out and just work out what original means to you with the director?
[00:02:49] John Mathieson: I keep watching old films. I went to see Days of Heaven with the kids the other day. , which was very Terrence Malick, blah, blah, blah. And you actually look at his film, it's actually quite advanced. Non-linear camera, [00:03:00] wanders around. He doesn't say, oh, here we are on the prairie, here's a wide shot, here's a two-shot, here’s a close-up, he just wanders into stuff.
[00:03:08] John Mathieson: You get the feeling of what it's like to be on the prairie at the turn of the century. Famine, Dust Bowl, people on the move, women and men working together as [00:03:20] workers, pretty much just slightly above a slave. You get that feeling of what it's like rather than the nuts and bolts story. so we watch that and then talk about Raiders of the Lost Ark. It still jumps out as a film. So I don't know what period I'm stuck in. Because I, it's very difficult with a script to say it doesn't read well, so [00:03:40] you're, immediately, I'm writing all over it and making notes of what I think is, if it, when it becomes a film, something comes, when it comes off this thing, this sort of dead document.
[00:03:55] John Mathieson: Dead Sea Scroll or whatever it is, and it becomes a live picture thing. You get the [00:04:00] script, and then you try and start seeing it. I don't know if I'm influenced by the, The current things around me. lot of it it's very sausage making, it's very, there's a lot of McDonald's being said, oh people like McDonald's if you only give McDonald's the link McDonald's you give them a paella, they might think, oh this is interesting [00:04:20] I've had my fair portion of, yes, big Hollywood marvel y, type things. they pay you a lot of money, you're on it for a long time a lot of them are run very well work with Sam Raimi, terrific nice fellow. Had a great time, did a lot of giggling, worked hard, made a good film, people lauded it. And then [00:04:40] it's like McDonald's, you forget about it, you eat it, it's gone you just can't, you don't remember.
[00:04:45] John Mathieson: You don't remember the last time, you might remember the last time you went to some kooky Lebanese restaurant or something. God, the food was great, we must go there again, you don't you just forget it. These films are massive, but they're gone. And they don't seem to, [00:05:00] I don't know. Let's go back to the beginning
[00:05:02] Nigel: for you, if you don't mind.
[00:05:04] Nigel: your background is very diverse, so you did documentaries and music videos. When did you develop a passion for cinema?
John Mathieson: I've been to rather stiff school and, and then I went to college, and there was a guy I called there, I called Monsieur [00:05:20] Tissot, who was plump, and wore linen suits, and floppy ties, and was rather nice, and he showed us films.
[00:05:25] John Mathieson: I couldn't believe I was at, in some education system where they showed you films. And he showed us Polanski's Vampire thing, and some early Renoir, and just, [00:05:40] and at the same time you had Alien. So it scared the crap out of me. Really dark. So I think that I think everyone loves a film. When I was younger, I probably wanted to be James Bond, but I think that, that period when I was about 18, 19 and then I [00:06:00] moved to London, and I met a bunch of other guys who knew more than me, and they would take me to these small films.
[00:06:07] John Mathieson: Theatres on Rupert Street, there were a few independents, the Swiss Centre. And they would show, they were just showing films. And BFI was 2. 49 for a film. And there were all-nighters at the Scala. You could go and watch Napoleon for [00:06:20] eight hours. Those influences and then the photography that came along with that Metropolis and things like that really, that's what we, that's what we like. So we're looking at that and looking at travel, looking at Metropolis, looking at those things at the BFI, the NFT, National Film Theater and seeing Renoir, Wim Wenders.
[00:06:38] John Mathieson: You could actually understand [00:06:40] every type of filmmaking. You could actually go from silence to films, which are side shows, to feature-length things, Chaplin, American noir, French New Wave, moving to talkies. The difference between the Nosferatu that's running at the Prince Charles now.
[00:06:58] John Mathieson: It's 100 years old, 101 years old, we won't see it. [00:07:00] With this musician playing in front of the screen, they were just huge standing ovation when he finished. Then, if you see the Wolfman made. Only 10 years, 12 years later, suddenly, there's lighting, there's proper shots, there's tracking shots, there's close [00:07:20] ups, the language has jumped enormously from this sort of sideshow flickery thing, and then it jumped again.
[00:07:26] John Mathieson: And so that exciting period of the youth of cinema, you could actually see. At the BFI, and you can still see these films now.
[00:07:33] Nigel: So you were very lucky in a sense, because you were surrounded by the history of cinema. In London you could watch the history of [00:07:40] cinema. Yes, for nothing. From the beginning. To wherever the present was for nothing. And you were just bathing in all these different approaches to visuals and storytelling and narrative and just absorbing it.
[00:07:52] Nigel: You worked in documentary and music video early
[00:07:55] John Mathieson: on, yeah? So when you're
[00:07:57] Nigel: working in documentary, because [00:08:00] a lot of the people that are listening to this are documentarians or are hoping to be documentarians, your eye, you developed watching drama.
[00:08:07] Nigel: All those dramas that you saw. How did you apply that to that process of filming
[00:08:13] John Mathieson: documentary? I don't think we did. I found my stuff was more going, [00:08:20] hope to God you're standing in the right place in the room that people come towards you.
[00:08:24] John Mathieson: And you got good at guessing what people are going to do next. And actually it makes you quite a good film camera operator. If you can predict a move that someone's going to tie a shoelace, not to dip too fast, not to do, or they're going to go down for a close up, you see them do an untidy insert shot later.
[00:08:38] John Mathieson: You can make it [00:08:40] all flow together. That's good. So that documentary taught. that to you, how to be an operator, how to keep both eyes open, how to see what's going next, you had to really know the camera. It became a very much as a thing that you wore on the, on your head.
[00:08:55] John Mathieson: And you learn how to, by the same, trying to go into a room, trying to be in the right [00:09:00] place so the action came towards you. If it's the wrong place, and this is what makes me laugh and furious about young filmmakers, is that let's do it hand held, make it really cool. Us as documentaries, we're trying to make it as smooth as fucking possible the whole time.
[00:09:13] But for the large part, you're going into a place thinking, am I going to be lucky today? Have I got enough [00:09:20] film in the magazines? Have I got the right stock in the magazines? Are we going to go inside? Are we going to go outside again?
[00:09:25] John Mathieson: No, I don't want to be reloading a magazine, taking out the fast stock, putting in the slow stock because they've stayed outside and we hoped we were going to shoot inside or we got the logistics that was always on your mind. And how many batteries have I got? Batteries were heavy. How many have I got?
[00:09:39] John Mathieson: [00:09:40] How many can I carry? How many am I going to need for this? Are they going to go on a bit? And then when they're in the room, and they're about to start an interview, should we just cut and reload now, and then we get 11 minutes on the camera? Or should we just shoot this out, and then I'll be halfway through a really interesting question, I'm the film runner.
[00:09:56] John Mathieson: , it's military. It's be on time. Are you charged [00:10:00] up? Have you got the right lenses? Are you going to get there before they do? The next documentary team, do you want it more than they do? Are you prepared to run up the hill? Will you get up a bit earlier, or will you just hang out a bit longer to get that nice end shot? . But there was something about being a young cameraman running about with a, an [00:10:20] NPR an Eclair, or SR1, and trying to just show that you weren't some tired old BBC hack. You could actually liven things up and make the stuff more watchable too.
[00:10:35] Nigel: Then you went into, then you went into drama and features. [00:10:40] Yeah.
[00:10:40] John Mathieson: So when
[00:10:41] Nigel: you're organising a scene, that's interesting to go to that.
[00:10:44] Nigel: How connected are you with the story? In your role as the cinematographer, there's the overall story, the whole feature film itself has a narrative that you're working on. And each scene has a narrative. How connected is what you
[00:10:58] John Mathieson: do to that? [00:11:00] So I get the script, I break it down, I write down each character, I write what they do, how they make an entrance, how they walk what are they going to do? Not just, oh, they've got to get through these lines. Yeah, but they get through these lines and they walk out the door, right?
[00:11:13] John Mathieson: When they walk out the door, do they look back? I don't know, they say lines walk out no, when they look back, it's more important than all those lines they've just [00:11:20] said, because they're looking back in the room, and they're seeing who thought what they thought about what this person who just came in the room.
[00:11:25] John Mathieson: That's an example that something might happen or has happened. I've had that conversation quite a few times.
[00:11:31] John Mathieson: But you look at The scene, and you break it down, and you think what's the midpoint of the scene, what is the point of the scene, where does, where's the arc, where's the [00:11:40] where's it kick, where's it change direction, and that what can you do there, nothing fancy but maybe you just, maybe you and I are talking like this, and the camera just tracks behind my head, and you shift the eye line, so I'm going left to now I'm going right to left, and what does that mean, it doesn't mean anything.
[00:11:57] John Mathieson: But he actually changed the balance of the film. [00:12:00] So it just adds significance to the moment. It does. So you try and do these things. I always write down, I write down transitions to go from day to night to this to that.
[00:12:07] John Mathieson: They walk out the door, they go through this other door. And I write them all down. I've got these huge lists. I've got, we're sitting on piles of paper underneath us here. Of all my ideas and storyboards and scribbles. To try and every scene I try [00:12:20] and give, Oh, we could do that there, we could use this lens there.
[00:12:23] John Mathieson: And of course you can dismiss. 75 percent of them immediately, and then, and then another, 15 get lost on the way and then maybe 10 survive.
[00:12:35] Nigel: But talk about the number of cameras. Because actually this is something I've always wanted to ask you, but I've [00:12:40] never got around to asking you, and I heard from someone else. But when Ridley Scott shoots, does he use multiple cameras?
[00:12:46] John Mathieson: He does now. He likes, he's quite impatient, so he likes to get as much as he can at once.
[00:12:53] John Mathieson: Now that's not very good for cinematography because you can only really light, from one angle, I believe. [00:13:00] Unless it's totally flat and nothing. So the problem is, is with that, you don't, you light from one, one, one side. You look at the older films you, getting depth into things was very much a part of lighting.
[00:13:14] John Mathieson: Now, you can't do that with lots of cameras. But he doesn't, He doesn't, he wants to just get it all [00:13:20] done. We shoot rehearsals we don't block, we don't do any of those things.
[00:13:24] John Mathieson: But having lots of cameras I don't think has made the films any better. When you
[00:13:29] Nigel: say you don't block,
[00:13:30] John Mathieson: what do you mean? We don't block rehearsed scenery. So
[00:13:33] Nigel: just the actors come onto the set?
[00:13:36] John Mathieson: Yeah, we just do it. And then you, hopefully you'll do three takes. [00:13:40] And by take three, the camera operators worked out the focus, but there's know where the focus goes.
[00:13:44] John Mathieson: The grip's got some marks on the floor and I'm might have maybe managed tweak the lighting a bit. It's not, it's a bit rush, rush, rush. But mean that's changed in him. He, that's the way he wants to do it.
[00:13:54] John Mathieson: And I don't like it. No, I don't think many people do but [00:14:00] people love his films and he's Ridley Scott and he can do what he wants, so And people want to shoot multi cameras because they get lots of performances. They put lots of people in. There's not the care in actually saying, you know what, there's five people in the room, but I really want to just get this right on this guy, this girl. I just want to get that right.
[00:14:18] John Mathieson: Because I know I'll be on [00:14:20] that. And now this thing of generally Covering stuff rather than me being the cook and cooking you something wonderful in my kitchen downstairs. You just go to the supermarket with one of those really big trolleys and just put your arm on the shelf and just chuck all that stuff in and we'll sort it out later.
[00:14:36] John Mathieson: It's really lazy. It's the [00:14:40] CG elements now of tidying things up, leaving things in shot, cameras in shot, microphones in shot, bits of set hanging down, shadows from booms. And they just said, we'll clean it up. When we did the first Gladiator, that was 50 shots, 50 effect shots.
[00:14:56] John Mathieson: That was it. 50, this one would be in the [00:15:00] thousands. Phantom of The Opera was six effect shots so each frame had to be perfectly exposed on film, and the tracking had to be perfect, the, no bumps, the focus bang on, the operating incredibly whatever was required, smooth, chaotic, whatever it was. There was no [00:15:20] reframing later.
[00:15:21] John Mathieson: There was no tidying up. The camera had to be running perfectly. The fastidiousness of Looking after those things, getting there's a lot more. The camera was a sacred thing you know, people climbing all over it and intimacy. You could talk with the director, he was often, quite often in your ear, looking over the back of the camera, the [00:15:40] focus pullers on your other ear.
[00:15:41] John Mathieson: And he's tweaking the focus, and you're just giving finger signs to the grip. Now, things are on remote, focus guys are looking at TVs some way away, reacting to focus rather than predicting, like I said earlier, guessing what people are going to do next. There's no point in pulling them to them late.
[00:15:56] John Mathieson: You'd better arrive early and then walk into it quick, rather than [00:16:00] actually go, they arrived, and ooh, there's the focus. I
[00:16:02] Nigel: feel incredibly old fashioned then. I really do, because I, when I'm planning shoots, and I do it on docks, but also the drama, it's like literally every, who's the character, how do we frame them, where's the focus, where's the light on them.
[00:16:16] Nigel: Nothing wrong with that. I think in single camera the key frame, what's the [00:16:20] moment.
[00:16:21] John Mathieson: I think there's nothing wrong with that. It might be old fashioned, but that's the way I think, too. You have these plans, and of course it's a bit like when the army's saying, you plan your military thing, and as soon as someone starts shooting you, everything goes out the window.
[00:16:36] John Mathieson: Or Mike Tyson's version. Mike
[00:16:38] Nigel: Tyson. Everyone's got a plan until they're hit in the [00:16:40] face.
[00:16:41] John Mathieson: It's a hilarious thing, especially for him to say that. It seems like there's a way of being taught how to direct and block and plan shoots that encompasses that way of thinking.
[00:16:53] Nigel: This is what the scene is about. This is what the characters are for. This is the moment. Yeah, but I don't think it's very
[00:16:56] John Mathieson: difficult to work that out I don't think [00:17:00] But you're saying that the industry is No, the industry now has turned up and spray on everything. Put you, put a zoom lens on get on a remote head, some technic crane, and then just go.
[00:17:12] We'll be back with John in a moment. But I just wanted to jump in and remind you about the doc fix storytelling program. Which is the [00:17:20] reason why I'm recording these interviews with great filmmakers. If you want to find out more about the program. Which is there to help anyone. Who's struggling to turn an idea into a great story.
[00:17:30] You can go to apply.to the doc. fix.com. I'll send you a case study where I go over. Exactly the process I use when working on documentaries, which [00:17:40] include the Netflix series F1 drive to survive. Script writing for sir David Attenborough and much more. And of course, if you have any questions at all, I'd be glad to help. Now back to John. And how the ingenuity of a couple of farm laborers saved a scene in Robin hood.
[00:17:57] John Mathieson: I remember in Wales we were doing the, we were [00:18:00] doing Robin Hood, we were trying to get out on the break with a crane, and we're on the soft sand, and the whitewater tide was coming, and the crane kept sinking, and the grip was terrified we'd get stuck in the sand, which we would have done.
[00:18:09] John Mathieson: And these kids, twins, were watching us from a sand dune. Local kids. Freshwater reefs, right on the Carnarvon, right in the, Most westerly point of Wales. And they said [00:18:20] you can't, your wheels are too big. You, what you want is a bailing trailer. Sorry bugger off. No.
[00:18:28] John Mathieson: You put it on that. It's got big balloon wheels on. We've got one. You've got one. Yeah, do you want it? We'll bring it. So they brought this thing down. They even put this big Swiss roll, straw things on. And we chucked [00:18:40] our giraffe on that, and then they gave us a tractor. We backed it into the surface. This thing was 60 foot long, plus the tractor, which would get it out of trouble.
[00:18:46] John Mathieson: Then the crane, another 30 foot. Suddenly we're in the break. With Russell fighting in the waves of smashing over him, suddenly we're doing, and these kids ran around for us for a month and they were terrific. And we went, myself, Gary Hibbs went to the farmer at [00:19:00] the end and said, listen, you're too.
[00:19:02] John Mathieson: If you want, we'll take them with us now. We will take them right now. And we'll make sure that they're okay. We'll give them jobs. They've got it. Whatever it they can see things. They're practically minded. They, as long as the day, they're enthusiastic. They've got, they're great. He said, I know, but the farm the farm, they've got a [00:19:20] bill on the farm.
[00:19:20] John Mathieson: I can't. He said, oh, that's a shame. But again, we can't let it, you change your mind. You call us, you send them to us in London and we'll But that those kids coming on to set, now you get kids coming on set, they sit in a box and they're not interested. They're on their phones, they're not, they don't, the privilege or their wonderment or, but they have to go through this [00:19:40] process of being vetted and da to get on the set rather than just You know, just peering over the top of a sand dune and saying, What are you doing?
[00:19:47] John Mathieson: That looks fun. That I miss, because most my contemporaries, they all got into the film industry as a, this chaotic way in. It wasn't really recognized, or if I was going to sit it [00:20:00] out, I wasn't ever going to get anywhere you know,
[00:20:01] Nigel: if someone was filming they had an iPhone, or they just had basically the simplest camera. Oh, yeah. And they were trying to film a documentary or something. What would you tell them to make sure they did in terms of how they shoot it? What should they worry about and what shouldn't [00:20:20] they worry about in terms of what they're covering?
[00:20:22] Nigel: If I gave you an iPhone and said, Can you shoot this documentary? What are you looking for on it? I think if if you want there are lots of iPhone things on, on YouTube and all fantastic. One, the first thing is to hold it the right fucking way around we've got [00:20:40] two sets of eyes, we look across the horizons, we're binocular we're predatory creatures, both our eyes look forward.
[00:20:46] John Mathieson: There is a reason we have this format that is wider than it is taller. Turn it on its side, like a proper thing, and then When people view it, they'll at least be seeing it full screen. Then the other thing is not to move it around, [00:21:00] just to do a shot. Just do it as still shots, don't move. Do a shot, and do it again, and do it again until you're right, and then you move, and do another shot.
[00:21:10] John Mathieson: And then vary it you've got one, two, three lenses on these things now. Rather than just trying to gather it all up at once and because you're so easy to move and they're light and you can just keep [00:21:20] rolling around people okay so if they're coming through the house they can say hello to mum running upstairs grabbing something you know that's fine you can do your steadicam shot but don't why not just stand at the top of the stairs and see them come up the stairs and pan them into the room and find A girlfriend in bed with someone else, whatever just do it that way rather than, oh so have the patience,
[00:21:39] Nigel: [00:21:40] don't get carried away
[00:21:40] John Mathieson: with what's happening. Yeah, but don't shoot too tight, is the other thing. Because everyone views everything on very small, but I think you watch Spielberg and some others some of the most significant shots in films are not huge close ups.
[00:21:53] John Mathieson: I think if you keep, I always think, if you keep on the eyeline tight, that's one of my things about shooting multi cameras, you can't get on the eyeline. [00:22:00] Close ups, close up, but to be on a good eye line, like just grazing past the other actor, so your eyes are going into the camera, even at a distance, has far more value than a close up.
[00:22:11] John Mathieson: That's, the eye line's off. It's not disconnected from the screen. That's one of my things about Point of [00:22:20] Interest. I just couldn't, I missed that connection. Close ups, he's shot in this multi camera. Have you seen it? Zone of Interest. Sorry. Zone of Interest. I haven't seen it yet.
[00:22:32] John Mathieson: So that's Jonathan Glazer's film. Jonathan really is, next to Ridley Scott, probably our most interesting British director. All his [00:22:40] films are good. Now, this one in particular, I don't really like because he does this multi camera thing. can't get close to key moments.
[00:22:48] John Mathieson: You can't, where are you supposed to Sit in the front of the cinema, sit, I don't know, I just don't feel connected to some of the emotions. Now I know what he's doing, but he's [00:23:00] got these multi cameras, I don't know, he's shot on so many cameras, and hidden tiny little things all over this house. And then he does, goes into some very interesting things towards the end of the film, but the large part of it, for me, the film's over quite quickly, because it doesn't, I'm not saying cameras do fancy things, or nice lighting, [00:23:20] or any of these, it just doesn't connect.
[00:23:22] John Mathieson: But, I think that's the thing of, don't zoom in, you go close to the actor, and get the shot, then go back, rather than try to go all in, and we're zooming back out, and blah, blah, think of cuts I think the thing What I learned was when going to a cutting room for the first time and actually cutting your thing.
[00:23:38] John Mathieson: When you make the first [00:23:40] cut you've done it yourself, you go, oh my god, that works. That's amazing. All it is he looks in, then they look across the room, and then they pick up that look and you pound with their look and you cut. Fucking hell. It's just a slice of the fucking celluloid.
[00:23:54] John Mathieson: And it's got this magic to it. It's got a language. Film does have a language, whether you like it or not, you can [00:24:00] deconstruct it, but people understand it. You wide shot man in a wheat field or something. Man, in a plow field, cut to a close up of your eyes, something's gonna happen to him, and he looks off to one side. Now you don't gotta get sound. We, ah, let's go all the way down to his eyes, okay? We're going down to his eyes. We're going to, I know, I, we need to get to his eyes. I need to see who he is. I'm coming to his face. Oh, I got to his [00:24:20] eyes, right? And then he reacts and then you go off to what he's seeing.
[00:24:22] John Mathieson: No. Wide shot, into his eyes, click, he looks left, what's he looking at? That's got far more, and it's got a language, and you understand it. Now, you can deconstruct it, but to think you are the new genius filmmaker, I am the genius filmmaker, I have bought a 4K camera on Tottenham Court Road, I'm now going to [00:24:40] make the most fantastic films.
[00:24:41] John Mathieson: You need other people around you, and you need to make cuts, you need to go to cutting rooms, and you need to understand, or explain to your DP, as the cameraman, I don't get it. If I don't get it, it ain't gonna go in the box. That means other people ain't gonna get it.
[00:24:53] John Mathieson: It's about mass communication. Follow the language. Use the language. So we go back to the iPhone thing. It was just And the iPhone is [00:25:00] amazing. Like my God it's like going from a moped to an intergalactical light ship from when we started making clockwork cameras and
[00:25:07] John Mathieson: clappy old Cook lenses. But that was, we had to make all that stuff work. And that
[00:25:13] Nigel: was So you don't just follow the action, just follow things round? No,
[00:25:16] John Mathieson: you just, no, don't follow the bloody action. Use cuts. It's any way to make things [00:25:20] shorter. I know. That's what I'm trying to explain to people. Oh I'll do this long shot and it'll be quicker.
[00:25:23] John Mathieson: No, it won't be, it'll be quicker to do lots of small shots and it'll give you a lot more option in the edit to make things sharper and some if you have to, where do you cut this shot if it's always fucking moving? And
[00:25:37] Nigel: what about the GVs, the general [00:25:40] shot? In the script I always go through things, say look, this goes next to that, and there's a dawn, there's a night to a dawn to a dusk, and you say you need something, you need a city shot, something in between.
[00:25:51] John Mathieson: Or a cat walking past the building or something, you need something to break that, so you need a transition. So I think, yeah I was talking about that earlier [00:26:00] get lots of stuff that's interesting to you, just get it but also to actually break something up. Like you need a dawn, you need a next day, you need a church bell, you need a padding shot across rooftops, you need people forget, I think particularly when it comes to fashion and beauty, that where they are they'll go, we shot in the Seychelles, looks like you shot in [00:26:20] the Camber Sands.
[00:26:21] John Mathieson: We went to Morocco, looks like you're standing against a mud wall. Where are the Atlas Mountains? Where's the mosque? People forget that you're in a location, you're feeling it around you, make sure you see it.
[00:26:30] John Mathieson: That's what we used to do in music videos. We'd go and pick the band up, we'd get in the bus in the morning, hung over as shit from a nightclub, and we'd start sticking outside the transit window just start filming people on the [00:26:40] street and stuff like that.
[00:26:41] John Mathieson: Some bloke having coffee, some guy doing the bins or something and then you suddenly you had this film. Oh my god. This is interesting So you get you gave a bit but that was just an instinct you just learned that was useful do you feel
[00:26:52] Nigel: optimistic or not about the future of Filmmaking because of all the technology
[00:26:58] John Mathieson: you can shoot things.
[00:26:59] John Mathieson: I don't think [00:27:00] this No, this iphone thing. I mean we I do this film now about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was, who, who went up against Hitler. You know that character, he was,
[00:27:08] John Mathieson: He stands outside the Martyrs Gate at Westminster, actually amongst, Martin Luther and other So we came to the movie, we needed some transition to get from the 1940s when they hung him.
[00:27:19] John Mathieson: In, in [00:27:20] 45, mid 45, he hung to the present day. So he stands up, so I'm sure, so let's go down with the camera. And it can't be too difficult. Go it's got to 20, 000 pounds. And no, I said off I went. With your iPhone. With my iPhone. Actually, I took an A7 as well. And I thought a guy with a camera outside Westminster Abbey, just a guy with a camera outside Westminster Abbey and a couple of crossers and I did a couple of [00:27:40] people that are from the film they just look like interesting, a bit smart, but whatever.
[00:27:46] John Mathieson: Anyway, I got the shots, and stole the shots. Fantastic. Now, you couldn't have done that a few years ago, you would have So the tools are
[00:27:52] Nigel: there
[00:27:52] John Mathieson: for people to tell stories still.
[00:27:53] John Mathieson: That's right. But anyway, I did hold the thing steady. I've actually put it in a clamp,
[00:27:58] Nigel: You said there's so [00:28:00] much there's so many visuals around now, isn't there? The challenge might be just to get people to look at your stuff. There's visuals, video Your phone so much
[00:28:08] John Mathieson: distraction.
[00:28:09] John Mathieson: Oh, yeah. No, it's terrible. That I remember talking the two Two ladies at Black Nights Festival, which is a very good sort of northern festival up in Talin every year. And it's the [00:28:20] surrounding Baltic countries. But anyway, it encompasses, it doesn't encompass much Hollywood. They might find some Uzbekistan.
[00:28:26] John Mathieson: And also some stuff from far afield like Vietnam or Korea again. But they were distributors talking. One of those more kind of industry type talks. And there were these two ladies from Sony and they were talking about Arrival you know, the [00:28:40] Oh, you know, well, we don't support that because only 50 percent watch that because women don't like science fiction.
[00:28:47] John Mathieson: Hang on a minute. This, so I jumped on the bandwagon. How dare you say something about science fiction? It's about a choice of a woman if she could see, if she knew what her life would be. And this child, she had a child with this [00:29:00] great love story and she had a child and that child died.
[00:29:03] John Mathieson: Would she know? Would she do that again? That is like Sophie's Choice. That is a huge question. I also slammed them from a great height because I was standing up above them, but how dare you say that to this young audience young, not audience, whatever, people listening to me.[00:29:20]
[00:29:20] John Mathieson: So I met them afterwards and Actually, we all got on famously. And they talked about what they do. And they said we do the festivals. And there's 10, 000 films, about 10, 000. About 5, 000 will get on the circuit. And we pick up two. Even if you make the most genius small film, and these two ladies from Sony, [00:29:40] are they even gonna get a whiff of it, hear about it, let alone see it, with that in mind, I think just do your thing, don't worry about it, just carry on. Regardless, make films for yourself, make sure, make people understand them, but make them for yourself. make it yours. Don't [00:30:00] make a genre film or if you are, but make sure it's yours. It's kooky and beyond any tangible way that anybody else, don't mimic stuff.
[00:30:11] John Mathieson: You'll have your own ideas don't worry about that you will. If you try and buy your way in, yeah, you'll end up eating McDonald's, [00:30:20] and that don't taste too good after a while. That's great advice. Be yourself.
[00:30:24] John Mathieson: hope, it's the only hope you have, really.
[00:30:26] Nigel: I hope you enjoyed that conversation with John and found it useful. If you're interested in working with me at the doc, fix all the links you need are in the notes below. There's a case study you could sign up for
[00:30:38] At apply.thedocfix.com. That goes into some detail on how the system has been used in some of the TV shows and documentaries I've been involved with. There's a lot of information there you'll find useful. And if you want to get in touch, you can send me an email to Nigel at the doc. fix.com. And I'd be happy to hear from you. And that's the last thing. If you're enjoying this [00:31:00] podcast and want to support the show. And help keep it free. You could do a number of things. One is just to share it with someone who you think would benefit from it. And the, but to take some time to leave a review. If you leave a review for the show on iTunes or Spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. Helps the algorithm to get it in front of people who could benefit from it the [00:31:20] most. So that's all I've got for you today. Have a great rest of the day and I'll talk to you soon.