Behind the Scenes of the most popular shows in the modern TV landscape - with Ben Turner of Fulwell 73

Ben Turner is one of the creative minds behind Fulwell 73. This production powerhouse is responsible for global hit entertainment shows like The Kardashians, James Corden's Late Late Show, Carpool Karaoke, music series with Ed Sheeran, stadium events with Elton John and sports series such as Sunderland 'Til I Die - the series on which he and I first met. 
   
This conversation is a rare insight into the storytelling behind some of the most successful TV shows in modern broadcasting. We discuss Ben's journey to becoming a storyteller, his passion for creating stories filled with hope and optimism, and the broad range of projects he and his team have worked on. You'll also hear about how he transitioned from a budding songwriter to a filmmaker, discovering his knack for storytelling through editing.  
   
Listen as we explore the process and art of storytelling, with a particular focus on documentary filmmaking. We discuss the importance of having a clear vision, understanding the unique elements the medium of film can bring, and how to use these elements to create the best version of your story. We also talk about the challenges of making a documentary series about the football team that was his boyhood love, the impact of the changing atmosphere of the entertainment industry on storytelling, and the significance of understanding failure in shaping the tone of filmmaking.  
   
You'll hear about reality TV's influence on storytelling, creating meaningful content for a mass audience, and the value of collaboration and feedback in filmmaking. We reflect on our experiences with the series 'Sunderland Till I Die', the importance of uniting shooting and editing teams, and the joys of seeing a project come to life. Whether you're a filmmaker, a storyteller, or just a fan of great TV, this episode is packed with wisdom and insights you won't want to miss.

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Transcript

Ben Turner podcast

[00:00:00] Nigel: Hello and welcome to The DocFix Documentary Storytelling Podcast. Today, I'm talking to Ben Turner. Now often the names of the creators and producers in TV are a bit of a mystery. But the material put out by Fulwell 73, the powerhouse production company run by Ben and his four other co-founders is incredibly well-known. The Kardashians, the The Late Late Show with James Cordon. Pop videos for Harry styles, Elton John stadium recording a music series with Ed Sheeran, the [00:00:30] football series Sunderland 'Til I Die for Netflix. A series about astronauts with NASA sports docs with Manchester United, Carpool Karaoke. And so on. Some of this - and I can't just say TV shows or films, maybe media - has had a billion views, which can be hard to comprehend. But I think we can agree is a huge number.  

[00:00:49] Nigel: I've known Ben since we worked together on Sunderland 'Til I Die. But it was during this conversation that I began to understand how thoughtful his process is in deciding how to tell his [00:01:00] stories and how it's driven by clear purpose behind the company. We go deeply into the thinking behind the creation and storytelling of some very successful shows. And I hope you enjoy it.  

[00:01:11] Nigel: And while I have you, please do subscribe. If you want to know when the next episode is going to emerge. And if you want to find out more about me and how I work with people on their documentary storytelling skills at The Doc Fix. You can find out more at apply.thedocfix.com. That's apply.thedocfix.com. [00:01:30] And of course there are details in the show notes at the end of this podcast. Now that's done. Here's my conversation with Ben Turner of Fulwell 73.  

[00:01:39] Nigel: Ben. Hello. Hello, lovely to see you, nice to see you. When I was thinking about what you do and where you come from, there was this massive list of programs that you've been involved with. 

[00:01:51] Nigel: As an exec, or a director, or a producer, and they just cover such a huge range. It was hard for me to place you, as a particular kind of [00:02:00] storyteller. Because we've got, I'm looking here, there's music, sports, drama, space, observational, chat shows, stadium shows that you record. Just everything. 

[00:02:12] Nigel: There was a sex puppet show as well. Yeah. How do you describe what interests you  

[00:02:18] Ben: in a story? What a lovely way to start. What a lovely question to start. The reason we set Fulwell up in the first place was because we really didn't want to get pigeonholed too early. 

[00:02:29] Ben: The [00:02:30] first few things we did were around football, which is a bit of a lifelong obsession for us. And the company is named after Sunderland Football Club and that history. But in any industry, I think, and I know this from being on the other side of the desk now when employing people, you want to have a guarantee that the people you're employing can do the job you're employing them for. 

[00:02:49] Ben: And so you very quickly, in any industry, get pigeonholed. And the whole point of us setting Fulwell up was to try to prevent that happening for us. [00:03:00] I think that as a storyteller you're just interested in good stories, in people, in situations. And there are a few things I think that have, that unite the work that we've done. 

[00:03:13] Ben: I think there's a tonal... I'm interested in stories that inspire me and that I think are amazing and are filled with hope. I think a lot of our current discourse in the world is fuelled by fear and negativity and drama is [00:03:30] conflict. So inevitably that side of the human condition plays out a lot in what you watch. 

[00:03:36] Ben: But I've always liked, I like to... Live my life fueled by hope rather than fear, if possible. And so in the tone of a uniting thing, I think, in all of the work that I've done, and that Fulwell does does, is a sense of that. To say drama is conflict, so you have to go to dark places, and it's hugely fascinating. 

[00:03:58] Ben: And that's often where you see the truth of [00:04:00] who a character is in adversity. In fact, that is where you see the truth of what a character is in adversity. That's the whole purpose of it. But if there's a uniting thing, it's that it's a sense of hope and optimism and inspiration. And then I think another big unifying thing has been that we've always worked with great talent. 

[00:04:19] Ben: And I was going to say, with great talent comes great opportunity. What that's meant is that people, when we were building Fulwell, there [00:04:30] were a few key people who trusted us to make their stuff. And it meant that we could straddle multiple genres with them. one of those people was One Direction, and now Harry Styles, since Niall, to an extent. 

[00:04:46] Ben: they trusted us to make all of their stuff after a while. Which meant I've directed a Honda commercial. That's something you have to work a career towards doing. If you're a commercial director, it's a very niche thing. Unless the talent says I'm not doing [00:05:00] it. Unless these people I trust make it. 

[00:05:02] Ben: And in the, when we were establishing the company, there were a few people like that. James has been another one, Corden, who's now a partner in the company. And some other people who we've done multiple projects with. And allowed us to straddle, yeah, multiple genres and do quite a wide range of things. 

[00:05:19] Nigel: Yeah, you had responsibility for these people, these stories. You mentioned James Corden and Harry Styles, who I was going to mention. And this entertainment aspect. As a storyteller yourself [00:05:30] how did you get into it? If you want to talk something about that, it always interests me. Because the people I work with, they ask me often. 

[00:05:38] Nigel: What is the way in to doing this? And the unique thing about directing and documentary making is that you can come from anywhere at all. Yeah. So where did you come from to become a documentary storyteller, a storyteller in  

[00:05:53] Ben: television? Yeah, everyone probably has a relatively circuitous route into it. 

[00:05:57] Ben: I wasn't a kid who was like, I'm going to be a filmmaker and [00:06:00] made it happen. I discovered as a teenager that I felt a lot better about myself and could process my feelings better once I learned to play the guitar. And I made a lot of noise, most of it awful but found a way of channeling my emotions constructively by songwriting and playing music. 

[00:06:22] Ben: I also discovered my limitations because I practiced really hard and I was better than most of the people I knew, but I wasn't. gifted enough as a [00:06:30] musician to really do anything like brilliant there. But I learned a lot through it. And I went to uni I studied philosophy and politics with the belief that if I just kept trying to do things that were interesting it would take me somewhere that I found interesting. 

[00:06:44] Ben: And when I left university I got a job as a runner at a TV PR company. They used to cut like VNR's B roll for like news footage. That's for people who don't know what that is, that would be the first event I did was the launch of the Rover 75. And then the company went down [00:07:00] there and filmed 15 minutes worth of essentially of rushes. 

[00:07:03] Ben: An interview with Dave Stewart, who wrote the Carhorns symphony, it was. On 75, Rover 75's horns. It was a silly PR stunt. But the, my, the company I worked for would go and film the event and cut 15 minutes worth of rushes, organized on a Beta SP tape, to send to a newsroom. So when they had a minute and a half at the end of their bulletin, they would say, oh, this ridiculous thing happened today, and then they would get...[00:07:30]  

[00:07:30] Ben: Publicity on TV. So the editing was super basic and it was just at the moment where computer editing was becoming a thing. They used to spend thousands on two machine B2SP suites. And very early in the process I was quite loud, I wasn't great at tea and the post and the kind of things they wanted me to do. 

[00:07:48] Ben: And one day I got my hands on, they had an Optima, it was a digital editing suite. And having spent all that time trying to be a musician and spend basically I didn't really like performing that much. I've discovered that I loved recording [00:08:00] music. So I spent most of my time at university just like writing songs and recording them. 

[00:08:05] Ben: And when I sat down with this offline edit suite for the first time, it just clicked in a way that I had nothing in my life had ever clicked before. I could just do it. And I could like, as I really bumped against my ceiling as a musician for a long time. And I had that revelatory moment that. This was something I didn't know where my ceiling was with it, and I loved it. 

[00:08:25] Ben: And very quickly, I cut a few videos, and they were quite surprised by how well they went. [00:08:30] But because the editing, most of the editing they needed was really basic, it was just a collection of rushes, it was clear that I would at least be able to do that. So they bought me an offline suite, and I saved them a huge amount of money, and it got me on the path to filmmaking. 

[00:08:43] Ben: I started as an editor, and after a while, I, of swearing under my breath at directors who I didn't think were giving me what I needed. I was like, if, why don't you try doing it yourself? Rather than get bitter about it. And it all snowballed from there. And then, Fulwell is, [00:09:00] in its origin, myself, my brother, my cousin Leo, and Ben Winston, who we, our mums are best friends and we grew up together. 

[00:09:07] Ben: And we ended up going on the road making a film called In the Hands of the Gods, where we followed a bunch of football freestylers as they busked their way from London to Buenos Aires to shake the hand of God, meet Diego Maradona. And my partners have an array of amazing skills, including getting in and out of trouble brilliantly. 

[00:09:25] Ben: They can blag anything and they always have incredible adventures. And I [00:09:30] was able to, at that point, take a lot of rushes and turn it into a film. With their help. And having never found my band as a musician. I think I could have been a good rhythm guitarist. And written a few songs and been a part of something. 

[00:09:44] Ben: But I never found my band. And filmmaking, I was gifted my band. Out of my my cousins and my brothers and my best friends. Who had really complimentary skills. And it went from there. That  

[00:09:56] Nigel: band of people is incredibly important. You can't do it by yourself,  

[00:09:59] Ben: can you? No, [00:10:00] absolutely not. I'm now really an exec producer more than anything. 

[00:10:04] Ben: But as a director, I would definitely say that directors get too much credit. for the process. Film making is a collaborative medium. That's the joy of it. And one of the great joys for me is being part of managing a team where the end product is like a mind meld. It's the collective work of a group of people and it's better than it could have been if any one of them had have done it.[00:10:30]  

[00:10:30] Ben: And I think that in film making, having a great director on board is another marketing tool. And obviously it does make a huge difference. But... That collaborative thing is hugely important for any kind of success.  

[00:10:42] Nigel: There's a couple of things you mentioned that I've recognised as being really important. 

[00:10:46] Nigel: Marketing. Because you've grown up in this world of showbiz. The people that you work with, their showbiz, their sports, their image is incredibly important. You realise that side of it is massively important. [00:11:00] But at the same time, storytelling really matters. Because you can't just rely on... Celebrity or fame for people to watch. 

[00:11:08] Nigel: Just the very first thing you said about the collaboration. I don't know if you found this, but the most important thing that I've found in terms of collaboration is clarity of communication. And that is why, to me, storytelling is so important. Yeah. If everyone knows why you are doing the thing you are doing Yeah. 

[00:11:28] Nigel: Then you can work together. [00:11:30] Yeah. Have you found I've discovered this when there's been a lack of clarity. There's chaos in the room. Yeah. Yeah. And it's only when someone says, this is why we want to do this. Yeah. That it  

[00:11:39] Ben: Comes together. Yeah, that's true. I wanna jump back just for one second. 

[00:11:43] Ben: Yeah. 'cause it, it is very related. The thing about celebrity and the image of these people Basically, it is character. If you understand it as character, then it obviously dovetails very naturally into storytelling. So all of these people [00:12:00] we've worked with, we've tried to have a long term view on who their character is and what their character development is over the course of it. 

[00:12:09] Ben: And that's in the show we're making and also where they're going. For example, we... We made a show with Andrew Flintoff, with Freddie Flintoff, who is much beloved and well known to everybody. Cricketer. Cricketer,  

[00:12:21] Nigel: yeah. I'm just talking to those people in America listening to this. It's like baseball, but older  

[00:12:25] Ben: and better. 

[00:12:26] Ben: Yeah, cricketer, and now TV personality [00:12:30] and celebrity. And actually my brother, Gabe, who was close with him. And he, we were talking about what show to make. And I remember Gabe saying to him. Because for those who don't know him, he was a bit of a he's an immensely talented sportsman and had a reputation as a big party animal and quite reckless and great fun. 

[00:12:48] Ben: And the kind of shows he was doing after he played cricket were silly stunts and fun stuff like that. And we made a documentary with him about depression in sport. About sportsmen after they [00:13:00] finish playing and how they process that and where they go. And I remember Gabe saying to him, If you want to get to a place where people are going to be taking you seriously and you can talk seriously about things and you don't just have to spend the rest of your life jumping out of aeroplanes and doing ever increasingly big stunts, this is a way to do it. 

[00:13:18] Ben: Let's look at what the long term is, about how you can develop, essentially, your character, your persona, as people know it. And he used to be called Fred Flintoff because it was his nickname, because of Fred Flintstone. And he took his credit as [00:13:30] Andrew on that, and he had a much more serious conversation. 

[00:13:32] Ben: about where all his antics had come from and spoke to other sportsmen at the end of their career. And it helped change the trajectory of where he was going. And I think when we talk about these celebrities, if you understand in non, in a non scripted format, you understand them as characters on screen, then you can start to really get coherence. 

[00:13:54] Ben: The other thing I wanted to say in response to the question is so interesting. There's a tightrope you're always walking [00:14:00] between. What is the clarity of vision? What are we making? What was the thing that got us really interested in this in the first place? And made people want to give money to it and set off on this adventure. 

[00:14:11] Ben: But then how do we also allow it to become its best version of itself through the process of filmmaking? Because I remember, I can't remember who the director was, but I remember really, remember there's a story about a Japanese director at a film festival, one of the great ones. And they said, and a journalist says to [00:14:30] him, Can you just tell us what your film's about in two sentences? 

[00:14:33] Ben: And he goes, if I could tell you what my film was about in two sentences, I wouldn't have needed to make it. And what I think is really beautiful about filmmaking, about any creative medium, is that, is to try and find what that medium itself can bring that nothing else could bring. Like, why is it a film instead of a book or a TV show or a newspaper article? 

[00:14:54] Ben: And part of the answer to that is... That the process of making it allows [00:15:00] it to become something transcendent. That's also how you bring that team together. So at the same time you want to hold a clarity of vision and a joy in the adventure and a kind of faith in the process and a love of the muddle. 

[00:15:15] Ben: and it's a real tightrope to walk because as you say, if you get the muddle wrong it's a complete disaster. But if you clamp down on it too early and say, this is what we're making and it's not going to change. Then it's very limited. And in documentary, it becomes, and [00:15:30] you, when we, I'm always struck by it when I'm pitching to someone to make a documentary about them when I meet them for the first time. 

[00:15:37] Ben: To be like, I don't really know anything about you that hasn't been said. And so what we're going to do starts from here, and we're going to find it together. And everything I've pitched is like the worst case scenario, because that is like what we know already. So to get to something that's authentically their story. 

[00:15:53] Ben: It has to become. And that's really that's really difficult.  

[00:15:57] Nigel: I think you've described it brilliantly. It's so [00:16:00] interesting because exactly what you're saying and exactly how you, I think, about storytelling and teach it are identical. 

[00:16:08] Nigel: It's just I found a way, I think, to articulate it. So that people can use it practically. And I'll just give you an example. Okay, because you said Freddy Flintoff changed his name to Andrew. There's a way of looking at story that I believe is true. Is that what you're trying to do is multiple things, or a few things. 

[00:16:25] Nigel: But you've got this external story, this overall story about It's about a [00:16:30] cricketer and depression, and his friends and family, and they're all from the outside. So the language you're using is external. It's it's not who they are, it's what they are, but for the audience to engage, they have to have a subjective experience. 

[00:16:45] Nigel: So on one of, part of your storytelling is about this cricketer who did this. It's like the plot if you were selling it to Hollywood. And then, he has to have a name. And the name's Andrew. And you go, this is Andrew's story. Now, Freddie wasn't working because it was [00:17:00] actually connected with the cricketer. 

[00:17:01] Nigel: It wasn't the real him. So you giving him his real name was you saying, okay, we're now inside the story. Yeah. We're not outside. So I would say, as an intentional process, I tell people to do that intentionally. But obviously you've worked it out yourself. But that was one thing that was really interesting. 

[00:17:18] Nigel: And the other thing you talk about, the narrowing down. And that process. And the weird thing about... Documentary and drama and I always go on about this because it fascinates me because on the [00:17:30] surface they look similar because they've got those same elements but dramatists take an idea and try and create reality to express it. 

[00:17:39] Nigel: So I've got this idea and I'm going to come up with people and places that feel real and conversations. Documentarians have reality and the skill is giving it meaning. And a lot of people are scared of giving it meaning, thinking it's inauthentic or it's cheating. But what you're actually trying to say is, why this material matters. 

[00:17:58] Nigel: I've got something to say. [00:18:00] And that process of clarification to me is, you try and, you work through all these steps of meaning. I won't go into what that is, but there's a process. And then you match it up against the reality. And then you go backwards and forwards between the reality and the meaning. 

[00:18:17] Nigel: And you refine constantly the story. So the story that you're telling is always true. But it's just clearer. It's a clearer expression of what you really  

[00:18:25] Ben: believe. Yeah, that's right. And that journey is fascinating, isn't it? [00:18:30] Totally, and the drama and the scripts and the non scripted ones, they're basically in the opposite direction. 

[00:18:34] Ben: Exactly! This is the  

[00:18:35] Nigel: language I use. This is why this is so interesting to talk to you, because I've told so many people this. They're coming from a different end, but  

[00:18:41] Ben: they end up in the same place. And they borrow each other's devices a lot.  

[00:18:45] Nigel: But you can only make things engaging that are worth treating that way. Do you see what I mean? If the idea matters. And there was something else that you said I really think it's interesting how you talked about celebrity. And obviously, they're more than a celebrity because you're [00:19:00] trying to get inside them. Yeah. And that requires trust. Yeah. Massive trust. At the beginning did you see, did you get better at gaining trust over time and being allowed to make those kind of films? 

[00:19:13] Nigel: Were you first making more promotional stuff and then did you feel, because they trust me, I can make  

[00:19:20] Ben: something more interesting? That's an interesting question. Yeah, I suppose you do. Also you gain a reputation, don't you? Now we've been doing it for a long [00:19:30] time, and we did something with Ed Sheeran and Ed, we've known Ed for a while, he's seen all the stuff we've done, he's been on the Late Show, he's been on like, he's been around our orbit, and seen the kind of things we've done, so you get there much quicker, and I suppose somehow you learn how to carry yourself in a certain way. 

[00:19:50] Ben: that, that gained trust. But yeah it's definitely a process to get there for sure. There was something  

[00:19:57] Nigel: that because we worked together on [00:20:00] Sunderland Till I Die. Yeah. And I found that absolutely fascinating for multiple reasons because this was the first entertainment company I'd worked with, let's put it like that. 

[00:20:11] Nigel: The atmosphere in the place was completely different because I'd come from, I don't want to say serious documentaries, but I think. The entertainment aspect of it wasn't the focus of the stories I was telling. I wanted to make them entertaining we took ourselves more seriously. 

[00:20:29] Nigel: [00:20:30] When we wandered around your old building, it was like, wow, this place is amazing, because there's people in baseball caps having fun. Yeah. But this is the thing I thought about Sunderland 'Til I Die that's become clearer to me now. And it might not be true it might be true, it might not be true, and this is what I want to ask you about. 

[00:20:49] Nigel: Because it was a tricky series to make. Yeah, very. I'm going to suggest why it might have been tricky. And that was because Sunderland weren't well known. Yeah. [00:21:00] So you sold a series to a major network who wanted a very successful program, because that's what they demand, for a team that no one had heard of. 

[00:21:06] Nigel: Yeah. And you'd hope that they would succeed, but they failed. the position you were in now was, how do we tell a story about a non famous... person, or a non celebrity story that is about failure, when a lot of the stuff you've done before, however nuanced it was based on the fact that these people are well known, [00:21:30] and they've achieved success. 

[00:21:33] Nigel: What's that like? Yeah. This is the  

[00:21:36] Ben: opposite. Totally. Okay, so I've got loads to say on this and in a way, I think bizarrely, and we might not have really known this at the time, but for the tone of filmmaking we do, understanding that failure was, in a way, a bit of a gift, because I always tend to, I want to love my characters and I wanna be kind to my characters. 

[00:21:59] Ben: And if they're too [00:22:00] successful, you have to find something else, not to undermine it, but something else behind it. To humanise it, maybe? Yeah, and to get some purchase in there, otherwise it's just promotional, drama is conflict, so where's the conflict if it's only success? With Sunderland because it was such dismal failure. 

[00:22:18] Ben: It allowed me the background to Sunderland until I die is we're all Sunderland fans. And I've loved Sunderland Football Club my whole life. It's one of them, there used to be a t shirt that I had that was, you can change your wife but you can't change your football team. [00:22:30] That was before I was married. 

[00:22:31] Ben: But but Sunderland is very deeply in my DNA. Because I grew up in London wishing I would grow up in Sunderland. And feeling that hard done by because that hadn't happened, oddly. All that's to say that actually, In the end of it, our tone worked really, when we finally discovered it, worked really nicely for it. 

[00:22:50] Ben: Because I could be generous and kind and love the place as much as possible. Because everything was so terribly going wrong that it created that dramatic tension that you needed. [00:23:00] I, one of, there's been a few things that have been very lucky in my career. One of them was that I arrived as an editor just at the time when being able to, where it was being democratised. 

[00:23:11] Ben: I arrived as a filmmaker. When suddenly cameras got cheaper, like the PD 150 revolutionized things, you could, and so you didn't have to get tons of money to make things, so you didn't have to get past a gatekeeper to tell you yes or no, we just went and made our film. Because it was cheap enough to do, and similarly for editing, the game changed, and I didn't have to [00:23:30] do a massive apprenticeship. 

[00:23:31] Ben: If I could use a computer and I could edit it and give you a product, I was an editor. And that process has continued even more now. Another big thing that happened and is that documentaries went from being niche and serious to becoming entertainment. 

[00:23:48] Ben: And sports documentaries particularly which are a natural format, TV format, because each week your characters succeed or fail in a very binary fashion by winning or losing on the [00:24:00] pitch. The sports documentary series became a vehicle. Because when we first pitched sports documentaries, people were like, why? 

[00:24:06] Ben: We made a film called Class 92. And I remember pitching it. And everyone we pitched it to was like, why would we do that? Everyone knows what the result is. And it's never going to be as good as having watched it live. So what's the point of this? And I remember being like, that's a very good question. 

[00:24:20] Ben: And the answer to it was that there's a resonance to the story that goes beyond the action on the pitch. Like, when you watch a period drama about... The Battle of [00:24:30] Waterloo, you know what the outcome is, but it's about the characters in there. So in the time we've been working, we were, it's been a great piece of luck. 

[00:24:37] Ben: And I think we've played a small part in it as well through some of our work. but it's more to do with market forces that basically these series are cheaper to make. for someone like Netflix. It's a fraction of the cost, Tiger King is a fraction of the cost of one of their big scripted shows, but it can get a similar audience. 

[00:24:54] Ben: So documentaries became entertainment and we've been very lucky for that. The atmosphere around Fulwell has [00:25:00] been hugely important to me. Because I think a lot of people come into this business, they come into this business with a dream. They want to be in, they want to do something artistic, they want to do something creative, they want to tell stories. 

[00:25:11] Ben: And in most places they have that beating out of them. by being just told to carry water for someone. And I feel like, this is what, about the same, similar with this hope and fear thing, I want people who come and work here to feel like they are living the dream that they started in the industry, [00:25:30] they are in, that they started in, that they got into the industry to do, that they are, that dream is alive for them. 

[00:25:36] Ben: And I want them to leave this place feeling that they've made something they can show their mum. They're cousins and they can feel proud of, and it goes on their show reel and that they were like the, and that their career has progressed through working here. And when I say it like that it sounds like what a great boss, but really it's incredibly mercenary because people work amazingly like [00:26:00] that. 

[00:26:00] Ben: I don't want people who I need to ask to stay late. Or tell them to do it. I want them to love what they're doing and to own it themselves because storytelling and cracking these things is hard. And if it's easy, it becomes hard because you want to make it as brilliant as it can possibly be. 

[00:26:17] Ben: And that involves a lot of thinking. It involves a lot of disagreement. And if people can disagree constructively, I remember at the end of one of our One of the projects, [00:26:30] someone who I'd worked really was like we didn't agree once. I was like, we disagreed all day, every day. But it never felt like it, because we were, you were, I was saying, what about this? 

[00:26:40] Ben: And you were like, oh, but what about this? And the other person was saying, what about that? And there's no one in the room who's been like, I've said this and no one's listening to me. We're all swept up in this forward momentum. Of trying to crack it together. And again it's greater than the sum of its parts. 

[00:26:54] Ben: And I love the fact that you felt that about Fulwell. And it's really important to me that the people here [00:27:00] are swept up in this thing. And that they're like, they're doing, they're in touch with the dream. it's a blessing to do this. There are people you think, you just think about all the ways people have had to earn a living through history. 

[00:27:11] Ben: This is an unbelievable thing that we get to do. It should be fun.  

[00:27:15] Nigel: Let's get technical though about Sunderland 'Til I Die because I I came in and it was still, you hadn't got a structure for it that was working. Okay. And I, along with many other people, it's a collaboration. 

[00:27:27] Nigel: Yeah. But I came in to have a look. [00:27:30] And I'd noticed. Things that were happening that I was convinced were avoiding the real story. I remember going to the rushes. I'll give you an example that I found that really cracked something for me. Is we have this thing called Transfer Deadline Day. And you get all these players in from teams that they can afford to buy. 

[00:27:48] Nigel: And they go through a medical and they get to play for the team. And I remember there was an assembly and it had been put together showing all these pretty good players coming through. [00:28:00] And it just didn't feel very interesting. And then I went back to the rushes, and then you could see the physio go, God, his knee's in an awful shape, and he's really crocked, why have we got to have this guy? 

[00:28:13] Nigel: And then when you start putting  

[00:28:14] Ben: that in,  

[00:28:16] Nigel: you start saying, you're not taking anything away, you're just adding this  

[00:28:20] Ben: subtext of  

[00:28:22] Nigel: what the real problem is, and hence... What the real story is. And so that was one thing that really opened it up for [00:28:30] me. And I have to say another thing that was really interesting was there's a way of making documentaries. 

[00:28:35] Nigel: That you talk about the way the system works. Which is shooting producers. Shooting directors and edit producers. There's a kind of separation between the two. And I think I'm being pretty fair when I say a problem can occur when people shoot stuff and people edit stuff and they don't really communicate. 

[00:28:55] Nigel: Yeah, very much and I think you weren't early on, but you were still working out that relationship [00:29:00] because there were people up there in Sunderland sending stuff down to people in London and people in London putting it together. And I and when that relationship got better, the films  

[00:29:10] Ben: really started to get better. 

[00:29:11] Ben: Massively.  

[00:29:12] Nigel: Because people were filming stuff. For the story. And so that technically that's a hard thing to make work, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Look, Sunder Until I Die was quite early for us and early in that sport genre. And the brutal truth is, we didn't know how to make that series when we started. 

[00:29:29] Ben: We'd made [00:29:30] really good sports feature docs, and making a six, eight, ten part series is an entirely different thing. And that first series of Sunder Until I Die was like, was the kiln in which we learned how to make the show whilst we were making it. And it should all in a way, it should always be there. 

[00:29:46] Ben: You learn how to make the film by making it, but we had a lot more practically to learn. There's and I having started as an editor, I know really well, there's nothing easier than sitting in an edit suite, looking at Rushes and being, what the hell didn't they do this, that and the other? And there's always a million [00:30:00] reasons why not. 

[00:30:01] Ben: And one of the very yeah, one of the big things that one of the big lessons out of that first series was how to unite those two teams. Because as you say, when they're working together, it's the greatest. when they're not, it's really difficult. And when you've got, when the shooting team are up there and they feel like they're being told what to do by people who don't know what any of the circumstances are. 

[00:30:22] Ben: It's incredibly tricky to balance that. But There's also that thing of, you get the clarity on the film as you go [00:30:30] through. So in the same way as in a three act structure, The final act is like downhill to the finish the last few, the last month or two, you know what the story is. 

[00:30:40] Ben: You don't have to shoot. You stop at the beginning of the process. You have to shoot everything because who knows who or what is going to be the heart of the story. And it's always really interesting in an edit that like. You're sometimes just, a scene that felt very banal when you shot it, suddenly becomes key once you understand what the story were. 

[00:30:57] Ben: Because there's two characters who are integral, [00:31:00] and that's the only time you've got them together on the training pitch. And actually, one of them looking irritated with the other one meant nothing at the beginning, and means everything now. You have to shoot everything to start with, and then at the end you can shoot much more efficiently, because you've established it and you know what stories you're following. 

[00:31:16] Ben: And again, balancing that up practically. In a, in the, between the edit and the shoot and everything is a big challenge, but certainly on Sunderland 'Til I Die, we, that first series was we'd, we [00:31:30] learned a we learned a lot about how to do it and subsequently that's become a huge part of what we do, these documentary series. 

[00:31:37] Ben: But that was the first one. And it was early in the process of that becoming a thing on. In in, in TV we're in, in, in our work and we, we learned a lot along the way. I'm glad  

[00:31:47] Nigel: I was there. I was glad I was there in the heart of it. There's so many things to pick up on this. 

[00:31:52] Nigel: I remember, let's just say, and it is part of the attitude. It's very similar to your attitude to the people you work with.[00:32:00] When I looked at the rushes, Whatever problems there are with the rushes, because they were just filming stuff. 

[00:32:06] Nigel: What you could see, what shone out of it was people had gone up there. So giving up their lives in London, gone up To develop relation, real relationships. Yeah. With the people in Sunland, the fans and the players. And that was the, it meant there was heart and soul. Yeah. In it, you just had to find it. 

[00:32:25] Nigel: Do you know what I mean? You can't be angry with footage. You have to say, you [00:32:30] have to look at the positive because. Filmmaking is a problem solving job. That's all filmmaking is, in so many ways. I remember I was filming once, and we had this new person on the crew, and something goes wrong, and then normally it's... 

[00:32:46] Nigel: We'll solve it by that, we'll solve it by that. And someone's just moaning about the problem. And you look at this person and say, have you ever been on a crew before? Yeah, totally. It's just useless. We've got to do something. Yes, we all know.  

[00:32:59] Ben: What's your [00:33:00] solution? I  

[00:33:01] Nigel: looked at that material and thought there was heart and soul in it. 

[00:33:04] Nigel: Yeah. So there must be something deeper in it. And we dug it out, and we dug it out. Yeah, I have to say it was strange because I've said that ever since. It's the, it was the most enjoyable place I've worked. Oh, that's so  

[00:33:19] Ben: lovely to hear. It was strange.  

[00:33:21] Nigel: It was weird. It was like I felt I was in, because you were learning something. 

[00:33:26] Nigel: Yeah. It felt exciting creatively. God, yeah. [00:33:30] Because it was new. And I always like new. Yeah. But also the atmosphere was like genuinely. This is fun, and I could see people were just trying to do the best they could, and they were hugely ambitious. So what  

[00:33:43] Ben: more could you want? And as you say, the problems are the thing. 

[00:33:46] Ben: It's a bit like going to the gym. That first ten minutes before it starts to hurt is just the warm up. If you think you're going to go make a film and nothing is going to go wrong, you're kidding yourself. It's the it going [00:34:00] wrong is the thing, and when that comes... That's when you start to get to work. 

[00:34:04] Ben: Yeah, and if you've got the right atmosphere and the right people Then that's really enjoyable for the solving of the problem. I sometimes say it's like it's a bit like it's all of the kind of Fraternity of being in an army, but you don't have to kill anyone usually so but the and that yeah, that thing is amazing you need that atmosphere so that when the going gets tough you're ready to like, [00:34:30] it's rewarding to engage with it,  

[00:34:33] Nigel: I knew it was working when the note came back from the commissioner, who I subsequently went to work with later. And he said, I understand the theme of this. Do you remember, I don't know if you remember that note. It was like that, we'd edited an episode, sent it off, it's I know what this is about. 

[00:34:49] Nigel: Yeah. Yeah. And ah, okay now this is Right, because it has to be about  

[00:34:54] Ben: something. Totally. Totally. And you have to find it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Even if you have a great plan, start with the plan's. Your worst [00:35:00] case scenario. Yeah. Once it starts to unfold. Yeah. Then it, then then to really make something authentic for that comes out of your, the subjects of your story. 

[00:35:10] Ben: Yeah. You've gotta just be, you've gotta let it come to you. We've gotta tease it out and you have to be comfortable with that uncertainty.  

[00:35:18] Nigel: It is the meaning is everything and again this process. Like I've got a very analytical process. It's just my background I love the chaos and the fun of it. 

[00:35:26] Nigel: But I remember there was an episode I was working on And this [00:35:30] is always the problem with sports docs Is that you think it's about the thing itself? Yeah about winning or losing And the problem is every episode would be identical. Yeah, are they gonna win the game? No, they know that's very sad Are they gonna win the game? 

[00:35:44] Nigel: And I remember making one episode thinking, I've got to, I've got to make them, I've got to put a twist on every one so they're all different, they've all got the same material so they'll feel similar. And one of them was about, the main story was, it was just about the nature of the relationships in Sunderland.[00:36:00]  

[00:36:01] Nigel: So how they feel about each other, how they change, the nature of compassion, what they could become, what they could be. And you're just using the material of football games and stuff in the cook's jumbo, the fantastic cook and the chef and the assistant and the people in the butchers and the taxi driver. 

[00:36:21] Nigel: And I was just doing that and it's wonderful to see that come together as a narrative. You're choosing a line for the story that is not the obvious [00:36:30] one. I think people get distracted by the  

[00:36:31] Ben: subject matter. They're so excited by the subject  

[00:36:34] Nigel: matter they don't realise they're using it. A storyteller uses a subject matter to say something. It's not about the thing. Absolutely. And so when, the only reason people wake up the next day, I think, and with Sunderland 'Til I Die, think I watched that episode. It's not about, you don't think about football, you don't think about sport, you think about... It's about having the endurance to get through something. 

[00:36:57] Nigel: Or, God, that's like my life. [00:37:00]  

[00:37:00] Ben: Even though it's  

[00:37:00] Nigel: a completely different world. So I think that's fascinating. Some of the techniques we used were really interesting because I nicked them and moved on. I worked on Formula One Drive to Survive. 

[00:37:12] Nigel: And I remember one of the techniques we came up with, there was a couple of techniques and they're perfectly valid and authentic, so I'm prepared to say publicly, but we got the the commentators to re record their commentary as if it was live. In order to explain plot points, I remember that. And the other [00:37:30] one... 

[00:37:30] Nigel: The one I was really pleased with, because I found this one, was I went to the radio phone ins. Yeah. Because I like football, and I listen to radio phone ins from Six O'Clock Show in the UK. So you hear all the fans slagging off their tea, moaning, and it's like the best interview material you could ever get. 

[00:37:50] Nigel: They're even pretty drunk. And then, so you have a real time response as if you were with the fans just after the game's happened. So we [00:38:00] trawled. Let's get local radio from 5. 45 and use that to talk about the feelings and the emotions. And in Formula One Drive to Survive, we did a re record of some of the commentary. 

[00:38:13] Nigel: Because it's way more complicated than football. Formula One. So we used those techniques. What kind of stories do you see yourself making in the future? 

[00:38:22] Nigel: Where do you want to go with your storytelling, do you  

[00:38:24] Nigel: think?  

[00:38:25]  
 

[00:38:26] Nigel: We'll be back with Ben in a moment, but I just wanted to jump [00:38:30] in to remind you about The DocFix Storytelling Program. Which is the reason why I'm recording these interviews with great documentary storytellers. If you want to find out more about the program. Which is there to help anyone. Who's struggling to turn an idea into a great story. You can go to apply.thedocfix.com. I'll send you a case study. Where I go over exactly the process I use when working on stories, such as the Sunderland show with Ben, another documentary series or films such as F1 Drive to Survive on Netflix and [00:39:00] meerkats with Sir David Attenborough. And if you have any questions at all, I'd be glad to help. 

[00:39:04] And now back to Ben. And the kind of stories he's thinking of tackling in the future 

[00:39:10] Ben: I'm not fully sure what the answer to that is, to be honest with you. The thing that I'm involved in at the moment, that's quite, that's been quite interesting to me As a company we've started making, we make the Kardashians these days. And reality TV has become a lot more part of what we [00:39:30] do. 

[00:39:30] Ben: And there's a show I can't really talk about that I've been pulled in. As an exec here I do a lot, there's a few things I do, but one of them is, basically what we'll call creative control I suppose, or like quality control. And so I've got a fair amount of experience now, so if we feel a project isn't going great, I'll often get pulled in to help fix it, or get it back on track. 

[00:39:53] Ben: And I've got pulled in more and more, on the first series that we made, this is maybe a better way of articulating it, on the first [00:40:00] series of the Kardashians we made, there was a storyline about Kim. 

[00:40:03] Ben: Getting involved as a lawyer her dad was a lawyer and she suddenly became really obsessed by people on death row who were innocent. And she got involved in trying to get someone who was innocent cleared of being executed. It's quite a heavy storyline for the Kardashians. But we felt, the team who were making it felt that if they could have, if they needed to find a way to accommodate that in the story. 

[00:40:23] Ben: Because it was, it gave a much bigger dimension, it was authentically where Kim was at the time. But to bring [00:40:30] that tonally into the rest of it was really complicated. And they asked me if I could suggest an editor who could do it. And so Andrea, we lent her out to the Kardashians and helped try and refine... the rest of the story structure so that it could absorb that because you can't go from her talking to someone on death row talking about what lipstick they're going to wear that night so tonally it had an impact on the show and a good impact on the show because it made it more interesting I suppose and more authentically where Kim was at [00:41:00] and so and we've got a bit more reality in there and in my mind as a kind of continuum of real old school ob doc on one side and real bare entertainment reality on the other side. 

[00:41:11] Ben: And one of the big differences is the time you get to make it I was going to say the money, but the budgets are quite big on these reality shows, but you've got to knock it out in a week, which means you've got to take what's there. And it's very scripted, and quite manipulated in a way, because you've got to get the edit done. 

[00:41:26] Ben: You've got to shoot it and edit it really quick, and turn it around. And so [00:41:30] what's, the thing that's most fascinating to me at the moment, is that continuum, and how to take some of the reality stuff that we've got, but give it a little bit more. I really respect the people who make that reality stuff, and the stories, as a storytelling challenge. 

[00:41:47] Ben: Although I don't love the programs themselves always. I think that I have a huge amount of respect for the people who make them, because it's incredibly skilled to do that quickly, rather than what I'm used to, which is spending ages thinking about it [00:42:00] and cracking it and refining it. And in terms of storytelling structure, I'm really quite preoccupied with how we take the kind of reality stuff we're doing. 

[00:42:11] Ben: And really get a bit deeper with it because some of these people are, the people are fascinating, the lives are fascinating, I'm not really involved with the Kardashians, but with some of the other shows, it's I'm finding that reality world really fascinating, and that's not a long term plan of where I want to go with my storytelling, but that's what's [00:42:30] preoccupying me at the moment. 

[00:42:32] Ben: It's the same kind  

[00:42:32] Nigel: of thing that preoccupies me actually, I'm going to link this into another interview I did where I spoke to Henry Singer. Who is probably at the other end of the kind of things that we do. It's very serious. Serious, but very good. He did Falling One, 9 11, Falling One, about that photograph. 

[00:42:48] Nigel: Did a film about the Rochdale child abuse scandal. And we were talking about the structure because I was saying, It's what you do with the material is the meaning. It's not the material itself. [00:43:00] So I was discussing the Rochdale child abuse set. Scandal and I identified or I thought it was a discussion about the nature of community and Almost the positives and negatives because if you're making an argument about something you have to show both sides Yeah, so community is strong and holds people together But also community in another sense prevents you from acting because there's groupthink. 

[00:43:20] Nigel: Yeah Okay, so that is what people will wake up with the next morning. They'll watch that and think, God, how do we stop, how do we stop this groupthink thing? How do you act when other people [00:43:30] want you to do, act a certain way? And what I said to him was, Love Island, you could give the same message about the dangers of groupthink and identity and community because people come in and are thrown out, there's groups. 

[00:43:44] Nigel: And you could leave Love Island. With that same depth of understanding about the nature of the world. As if you just watched a very serious 90 minute feature documentary about child abuse scandal and why it was allowed to [00:44:00] continue. You have to tell it that way. So do you feel that? Because I genuinely think you can take these, any format and deliver a message with it. 

[00:44:12] Ben: Absolutely, yeah.  

[00:44:13] Nigel: Because that's why I think you, you are That's your ambition in a way. Absolutely. You've got the audience, haven't you, with the Kardashians? So you have this massive audience. And then if you say something about It's not about celebrity. It's about something much more [00:44:30] deep much deeper and more human. 

[00:44:31] Ben: Yeah. I A big turning point for me in my career was I You know in our work with One Direction after a while. We realized that they could basically open almost any door for us And I'm obsessed by space and have subsequently made some stuff that I'm very proud of in that space and got to know some smash and it's been amazing. 

[00:44:51] Ben: And, but the first contact I ever had with NASA was to make a video for One Direction. 'cause I just was desperate to get in there. And they [00:45:00] had a song called Drag me Down and we were like, oh, that's the opposite. Drag me down will be the opposite of launching the space. Why don't we try and do that? 

[00:45:05] Ben: And basically we went, managed to get into NASA and we shot a music video there and that music video. Got has now got over a billion hits. And I remember thinking, a billion people watch have watched this. And the day we shot it, one of the press people from NASA was said to me "about two weeks ago we delivered the first high resolution photos of Pluto in the history of humanity.[00:45:30]  

[00:45:30] Ben: And a few thousand people liked it on Twitter. And today there were like people trying to climb the fence. to get in here, just because One Direction is shooting here". And we had this conversation that basically we left with the thought, wouldn't it be unbelievable if one of those billion people who've watched this video decides that they've got interested in space and physics and want to become an astronaut through this portal of One Direction being there. 

[00:45:55] Ben: Because there's all of the, all of these these teenage fanbase are suddenly [00:46:00] interested in NASA. And they had a real bump in interactions after that. And it really affected me, because there's a thing about, there's definitely a thing in film making, it's really difficult to get people to watch your stuff and people pour their heart and soul into it and a lot of the time the best film making goes a bit unrewarded actually I think, and I've really felt Through that period, I got a taste of what it's like for a mass audience, for millions, [00:46:30] billions of people to watch your stuff. 

[00:46:32] Ben: And I really like that. And I really like the notion of being able to talk to a a mass audience. And for people who I'll never meet to know my stuff. And to have a connection with people who I'll never meet. And I part of my spiritual belief is a kind of wonder at how much we're given. As human beings in our mind like some people find it really negative the notion They think you grow up thinking you're an individual and you realize as an adult everyone like [00:47:00] how unindividual you really are I've that I don't find that disappointing. 

[00:47:04] Ben: I find that spiritual I think it's amazing that like once upon a time someone figured out how to tie a knot and then someone built a boat and then someone figured out how to Sail that boat and then someone and all of those human discoveries are essentially given to us And we and the product of human endeavour is given to us. 

[00:47:20] Ben: And the notion that my work can be a tiny part of that collective human mind and go out there I find thrilling and borderline [00:47:30] spiritual. And so I love that in the filmmaking and I really want to reach a mass audience and I don't really mind what people think of whether anyone even knows my name in that stuff. 

[00:47:42] Ben: If people are watching the things that I've been involved with, as I say, I'm only a part of it, because one of my, one of the things I've realised that my role is here is to bring people together with my experience and collectively make something. It doesn't need to have my name on it, it has our name on it. 

[00:47:57] Ben: Full, in a way, Fulwell is more my filmmaking [00:48:00] identity than my, than myself. And I love that. As I, I find, I... It inspires me. I  

[00:48:08] Nigel: This is a fascinating conversation because I think it's important for people to realize that, that for example, I've never watched the Kardashians, okay, and I think I should because there's an assumption I read this was an interview I read with, it was just a creative, and I can't remember what her job was actually, but she said, the things that scare you, you don't like [00:48:30] watching Watch, go towards the things you don't like. 

[00:48:34] Nigel: Because there's something in them that will tell you something about yourself for the reason that you're scared. What are you scared of by watching that? Do you think you'll be dragged into this world of triviality? Do you? No because I think people will be interested to know that people behind the Kardashians think deeply about what you're trying to do with it in a positive sense. 

[00:48:57] Nigel: Yeah. I don't think there's that awareness. So [00:49:00] this is why it's really interesting. Because when I met you, you weren't doing the Kardashians, you were still doing this huge stuff. But I just knew you in this little area here. So I think it's incredibly positive. Yeah. You we won't talk specifically about your spiritual background, which to me is deeply fascinating, but it does have an influence on what you choose to do. 

[00:49:19] Nigel: You want to do  

[00:49:20] Ben: good. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's  

[00:49:22] Nigel: right. And I think people can see something like reality TV. And think it's just bland entertainment, whereas actually [00:49:30] you're trying to do something  

[00:49:32] Ben: more profound with it. If you can do. Yeah, absolutely.  

[00:49:34] Ben: And you want to be inside of the conversation. You want to be in the I've, my tastes aren't that mainstream. But my work has got more and more mainstream as I've got on, and I quite like that. 

[00:49:45] Ben: I'm into it. You know what I mean? I'm like, I'm exactly the same.  

[00:49:48] Nigel: My tastes aren't, but I loved the audience reach. Now the position you're in is remarkable really because I'm sure commissioners will listen to Fulwell if [00:50:00] they come in with an idea. And one of the things I've told the people that I work with is when you get good at storytelling, the problem you have is then you have to make different kinds of choices because your opportunity, Yeah. You broaden the. The opportunities you have so you have to start being more selective. 

[00:50:17] Nigel: It's almost like a fear of success. Yeah from going Oh my god, I've got no work. What am I gonna do? I'll take anything to oh five or six people want me to do something Yeah, how do I choose? How do you [00:50:30] choose? What to focus on. What's your decision making process about what  

[00:50:34] Ben: you want to do next. We've also got we could. We've also got a business to run. It's I have to. I'm also slightly in service to that. Over COVID. I really got a sense of what that meant. Because we managed not to lay anybody off. 

[00:50:49] Ben: And I'd always really thought about this in term. I'd always thought about it just in terms of filmmaking before I came into it. We've built a company with over a hundred employees now [00:51:00] here and in the States, and that's their lives. And so that when Covid happened, you're like, oh, we you have that sense of we're responsible for the community of people and it's not gonna be easy for 'em to get another job if you lay them off. 

[00:51:10] Ben: And there are two priorities to me. One of them is what keeping this thing going and growing and and what's good for the people here, which, Essentially it's a sort of slightly commercial imperative to the program making. And then there's what I love. 

[00:51:26] Ben: What's been interesting also in terms of what I love [00:51:30] is there's a process that happens as you understand the marketplace, what people are buying and what people are watching that slightly changes how you see a project. Because when you first start out, you're like, Oh, this is so fascinating to me, I'm going to try and tell it. 

[00:51:46] Ben: And there's an amount of that. I love sport and music. and space, which is, and I've done that to death now. And when I started, it was really, I wanted to be a great filmmaker. What I learned through documentary filmmaking is it's allowed [00:52:00] me to have an amazing life and go amazing places I could never have gone to otherwise. 

[00:52:04] Ben: And it's not that the filmmaking secondary to that. It's just that. it's, there's an extra side of it as I've got older in my life, and I suppose I've accomplished some of the things I wanted to accomplish. So that gnawing sense of am I any good? We all still have imposter syndrome. 

[00:52:20] Ben: We all I like anyone, I go to bed at night and think, Oh my God, is it going to be over? Am I just a fraud? We all have, I certainly have that to an extent. But a lot of I've managed to put to bed some of those [00:52:30] demons over time. And the life, the things outside of just the pure filmmaking have become a bit more important to me. 

[00:52:36] Ben: But, again, if you want to make shows that loads of people watch, you also have to be conscious of what people want and what people are buying. And one of the reasons also why commissioners will always talk to us is because they have a sense That that we understand that because one of the other things I say to all the people who work who are pitching is that commissioners job is much more tenuous than yours. 

[00:52:56] Ben: Like they're much more, they're much more likely to get sacked if this is a [00:53:00] flop than you are. There's the risk for them, any of those when you were seeing it in the last six months people are getting laid off from all those big streamers. And. they need a hit and they need something that's going to work. 

[00:53:14] Ben: So they're much more likely to take you seriously if they know you understand that. Rather than being like, my great auntie was involved in this and I love her and I want to tell her story. It's brilliant, who's watching it? You know what I mean, as far as they're concerned. So there's been a kind of coming together of what [00:53:30] I love. 

[00:53:31] Ben: As I say, my real passions are football space and music. And I've indulged that. A lot in my, in the work. But as I've got more mature in the industry, there's also a sense of what the zeitgeist is, what people are watching, what people are looking for. And then how you can infuse a story with those things you want to say through them. 

[00:53:53] Nigel: I'm sure it happened when we were making Sunderland that you'd get this command to be passed down through an exec saying [00:54:00] why do they want that? Yeah, you know that makes no sense. 

[00:54:03] Nigel: And then you have to realize they've been told. Yeah, there's a chain of command That's passed down that they said we want it to be like this We want to go and then you get the commissioning it saying I really want it to be like this and you have to Find a way to solve their problem. Yeah, You're still always trying to make the best program possible Yeah, but the conversation should always be I know exactly what you want, and we both want to make the best way possible. 

[00:54:27] Nigel: Is this the way that we can both do this? You have to [00:54:30] empathize with the people  

[00:54:30] Ben: you are making them for. Totally. And you they talk about the loneliness of power and stuff. It's like you think that those people who have power over you have got it all sorted out. They're more terrified, they're more insecure. 

[00:54:42] Ben: They need your help. They need your, everyone needs your love. Everyone around there needs, you. Love. And when they give you those notes the, I was trying to say to my teams, they, we don't have to take on their solutions, but you can't ignore the problems. When you get lots of notes on a cut, they tend to coalesce around a few things [00:55:00] that are unclear. 

[00:55:01] Ben: And you as the filmmaker, it's incumbent on you to solve that problem in the way that you're happy with creatively. But what you can't do is say they're wrong. Because when you're getting lots of notes that at this point in the cut, everyone's fucking confused. You saying you're not confused, you're an idiot. 

[00:55:16] Ben: It's no, these people are above average intelligence. If they're confused, most other people are going to be confused too. And if you're going to turn your back on that, no, that means you're happy putting a show out there that's confusing. And that people may not ever recover from watching that. And [00:55:30] you have to also remember that in the modern environment... 

[00:55:33] Ben: The Avengers is one click away. So how are you going to stop them watching The Avengers? One thing is make it fucking clear, don't confuse them. You know what I mean? Carry your audience with you. And the commissioners, they know their audience much better than you do. And to make real success is to like, It's essentially to find the language with them, however frustrated you are to be like, what are you looking to accomplish with this? 

[00:55:53] Ben: No, what's not like I don't, they don't necessarily know what the solution is, and they don't always want to know what the solution is. They're trying to help. [00:56:00] But you're like, What are we trying to? What is it that we're trying to address here? What's the problem? Or what are we? What are we? What have you been told that I don't know about what the audience one? 

[00:56:10] Ben: And they can help you. So most of them will help you solve it. Most of them aren't idiots. I found that, especially that Sunderland process when we all learn a lot from it and Netflix sharing what they learned about sports documentaries or documentary series in general, when they've really been one of the people at the cutting edge [00:56:30] of the series entering the mainstream is was a gift. 

[00:56:34] Ben: We did it with them to an extent. We were one of the series that they helped, that kind of cracked this. And we didn't do it alone. It was Nat who was the Prince of Eden. Yeah. Nat, who's now very high up at Netflix. I just thought he was brilliant. I loved, I just loved working with him. 

[00:56:52] Ben: He's really challenging. He was also Commissioner for Formula 1 Drivers as well. Yeah, he's made a big impact. And really challenging. [00:57:00] But really happy to go on that process to be like I'm not going to tell you this is a problem And we have to solve it, but if you've got a better solution I'm delighted and he was very happy to always say if you can bring that atmosphere of that conversation of like I'm not threatened by you telling me you disagree It's a gift to me if you're seeing something I'm not seeing that as a gift and it is a gift and if you can keep that You know you can keep that humility. 

[00:57:24] Ben: I suppose And just be like, I don't, we, between us we need to find the answer here. It doesn't matter if it comes out of [00:57:30] my mouth or someone else's mouth. Because also, as a slight digression, in those teams, everyone is important. As an exec producer, I don't see all the rushes. So if the assistant editor, if the the person who is technically at the bottom of the chain of command, isn't inspired, doesn't know what's going on, he is in many ways more important than me. 

[00:57:49] Ben: Because, there'll be rushes I don't see, and if there isn't someone, if that person doesn't say that is important, I know what this is, and doesn't want to bring you that nugget and say, guys, has anyone seen this? I [00:58:00] think it's amazing. If they don't feel empowered, you are, you're it's never going to be that good. 

[00:58:04] Ben: And that's got to go all the way around the chain. And if you come with that atmosphere, then the person above you, that you bring it with, a lot of the time will appreciate that. And they'll say, their back's against the wall too. So if you're coming with the right atmosphere, that can be hugely additive. 

[00:58:19] Nigel: It's funny because I have, I mean I have a phrase for this is that you're the author, you're not the audience. Yeah. That is your role as a director or filmmaker. You should be the author of the piece. You're trying to [00:58:30] say something. And a person's response to it is the audience response. Yeah. So they don't have the solution, but they can identify the problem. 

[00:58:37] Nigel: Totally. But the other side to that is I think a lot of filmmakers act as the audience to their own work. And that's where it goes wrong. Yeah. Because they make something. Then they watch it back, and then they just remake it. They don't take control of the material I'm always saying it's what you use the material to do. 

[00:58:55] Nigel: And this is when edits spin out of control, is that they're just [00:59:00] reacting. I've always said the worst comment that an exec who's meant to be helping you, and their job is to help you, is to say, I'll know it when I see it. And you're looking for support. Because that's the least supportive thing that you  

[00:59:13] Ben: can say. 

[00:59:14] Ben: The other massive mistake that people say, it's very easy to say what you don't like. It's as important to a car to say what is working. And people forget to do that because what you do is you watch it and you say oh three minutes This is wrong five Jesus Christ. That's wrong But there's always a [00:59:30] bit between those things which the thing you didn't give a note on there was like three or four minutes That was working and when you're giving those notes, it's really important I think to say that bit was good We have if it was more like if there was more like that We'd be in a better place because as you say just saying I'll know when I see it you leave people in the dark But to help Also, again, it sounds like kindness, but it's very expedient to just to remember to point out the things that are good because then you can do more of that. 

[00:59:59] Ben: You [01:00:00] can lean into what's working better because, as I say, the tendency is you just note what's wrong with it and then hand that over and say, fix all that.  

[01:00:06] Ben: What they do, what the really good execs do, I've noticed, is, and I try and do this now, having seen it from them, will be a paragraph at the top that gives you an overview of it. Here are the detailed notes. Yes. But here is like overview, this is the thing that I think is important. 

[01:00:23] Ben: The headline is this. Here's a load of specific stuff. And then also, not to get too granular too early. It's very [01:00:30] tempting, and you can actually tell when people don't know what they're doing if they're giving you fine cut notes on the first cut. 

[01:00:34] Ben: You don't need to know whether that that's a bit of a jump cut. It's if anyone worth their salt will fix that later on. But what are the appropriate notes, what are the appropriate, you want to make sure you're addressing the right things at the right stage in the process  

[01:00:49] Nigel: just before we wrap up. In terms of technique, have you ever formalized your education or training? Do you read  

[01:00:58] Ben: books? Do you...  

[01:00:59] Ben: Oh God, yeah, all the [01:01:00] time. But I've there's two things, there's always two things to say. Style is, another one of these continuums. If it's overly stylized, I think it puts a barrier between you and the subject of your documentary. If you set it up to really shoot it too beautifully, it you're putting too much control over the situation and stopping it from emerging independently. 

[01:01:23] Ben: Your voice as a filmmaker is in there. You're making a million decisions. You make the influence how it [01:01:30] is. To try and make that hand as, as invisible as possible. So that you, you have as an audience you have as direct a relationship to your, subject as possible. One of the interesting quirks that I've become aware of through a bit more work in the reality zone. 

[01:01:46] Ben: What actually looks very clumsy in reality is in a way a lot more honest. Because when I'm doing it, my temptation is to try and hide the hand of the filmmaker. Try and pretend that the person is doing this anyway. But there's a fucking film crew there. So it's not really natural. [01:02:00] And what, sometimes in reality, what feels a little bit clumsier is actually a bit more honest of the audience being like, Yeah, we know there's a film being made here. 

[01:02:07] Ben: We don't need to pretend that's not happening. And we know you're a producer and so that person's arrived because you think they're good for the scene. Don't patronize me by trying to pretend they're there naturally, which is quite interesting because it feels like those of us with more observational, with film, we feel like we have more integrity than they do. 

[01:02:25] Ben: But actually sometimes maybe they've got more integrity than us. They're a bit more honest about the process. 'cause we spend a lot [01:02:30] of time trying to hide the hand of the filmmaker. We rerecord the comms, we do thought track from Italy. We do all these devices. Yeah. I'm not shitting on that 'cause I do it a lot and I feel and a lot of the time that is to not stand and to try and hide the hand of the filmmaker. 

[01:02:43] Ben: So as an audience, you've got a closer connection to the subject. But it's not, it's complicated that, but on the whole, in terms of visual style, I try and always make it subservient to, because I we all want to shoot [01:03:00] cool shots and find new stuff and use new toys, and I obviously love that, but I always try and slightly temper the style to make sure that it's coming from the subject first, rather than from me first. 

[01:03:12] Nigel: Ben, it's been fantastic talking to you. Really enjoyable. Likewise. And um, good luck with everything that you're doing. I'm sure me and a billion people will hear  

[01:03:20] Ben: about it quite soon. 

[01:03:21] Ben: Oh, that's really kind. Thank you. It's been really lovely chatting.  

[01:03:23] Nigel: I hope you enjoyed that conversation and found it useful. If you're interested in working with me and the doc [01:03:30] fix all the links you need or in the notes below. There's a case study you could sign up for that goes into some detail on how the system has been used in some of the TV shows and documentaries I've been involved with.  

[01:03:40] And there's a lot of information there you'll find useful. And if you learn something want to get in touch, do let me know. You can send me an email to Nigel at the doc. fix.com. And I'd be happy to hear from you. And as a last thing, if you're enjoying this podcast and you want to support the show,  

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[01:04:16] So that's all I've got for you on today's episode. Have a good rest of the day and I'll talk to you soon.