Creating Unforgettable Documentaries with Henry Singer, director of "9/11 The Falling Man"

One of the most significant documentaries in recent times was made by Henry Singer. He took an image of the horror of the 9/11 terror attack on the Twin Towers in New York - The Falling Man - and turned it into a powerful story about... well, exactly how that story came to be is one thing we cover in our conversation.
 
 Along the way, we share Henry's experiences, his father's expectations, and his transition into journalism and filmmaking.  We reveal the 'magic' of making a sequence work, the potent influence of integrity in filmmaking, and how that can make a film strike a chord with its audience. Henry and I also delve into the grit and confidence that are requisites when creating a documentary film, the significance of honing in on one's methods, and the importance of understanding the filmmaking process as a whole. 
   
 In the latter part of our discussion, we explore the crafting of documentaries that captivate audiences and probe into a variety of topics. We discuss the delicate balance of merging public service issues with commercial interests, endowing stories with multiple dimensions, and creating films that are both inventive and accessible. We also touch on the toil of filmmaking and the worth of European film festivals. Ultimately, this episode represents a fascinating deep-dive into the realm of documentary filmmaking and is an essential listen for anyone intrigued by the art of storytelling via film.
 
 Some of Henry's films:
 9/11 - The Falling Man, Baby P: The Untold Story, The Betrayed Girls: The Rochdale Scandal

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the doc fix documentary storytelling podcast with me, Nigel Levy. On today's episode, I'm talking with Henry singer. Henry is one of Britain's preeminent documentary filmmakers, and he's won or been nominated for pretty much every major international and British documentary award.  

[00:00:19] Probably his most acclaimed film is The Falling Man. Which tells a story of a man who jumped or fell from the World Trade Center on 9/11. Using an [00:00:30] iconic photograph as a way into his storytelling. Henry and I talk about the storytelling behind this film. Others he's made what really goes on in the edit and a lot more. In fact, I was in the edit next door to Henry when he made his 9/11 film, working on one of my own. So it's going to be interesting for me to find out exactly what was going on in there. Henry makes serious films, but he's also a very clear, funny and engaging interviewee about what it takes to be the kind of filmmaker who's gained, [00:01:00] the deserved reputation he has in the industry. 

[00:01:03] While I have you here, please do subscribe. If he wants to know when the next episode is going to emerge. And if you want to find out more about me and how I work with people on their documentary storytelling skills. You can find out more at apply dot the doc. fix.com. That's apply.thedocfix.com. And they're also details in the show notes at the end of this podcast. That said here's my conversation with Henry Singer. 

[00:01:29] Nigel: We've known each other [00:01:30] a long time, so it's really great to get in touch with you and have a conversation with you as people will realize You're a lot of fun and you like to talk, and you make serious films. 

[00:01:39] Nigel: So where are your comedies? Where have you hidden those? 

[00:01:42] Henry: People always ask me that people always say to me, why don't you make lighthearted funny films? And I just don't, I don't have it in me. I, grew up in a particular cultural background in the United States, which. Emphasize public service. [00:02:00] And so I think my work has always been driven by that instinct to make films that actually make a difference, have an impact. 

[00:02:10] Henry: And I, don't think I'm the most talented visual filmmaker in the world by a long shot. I don't think I'm the best filmmaker by any means, but obviously not. But I do like to think I've done important work. And I think that comes from an instinct to do important work to do, to make films that matter.

[00:02:29] Henry: Films, [00:02:30] that need to be made as opposed to films that can be  

[00:02:32] Nigel: made. I, completely understand that. And your films obviously, By the subject matter that you tackle, it's clear that you're making films are important to you. Just to clarify what I'm, what I like to talk about, and we will talk about your films as well, but it's the process of making a film is, I think it's always interesting to me. 

[00:02:50] Nigel: It's something that's fascinated me when I've seen a piece of work whether it's yours or anyone else's. That sense of this feels meaningful. [00:03:00] I'm gaining something other than the subject matter. You are using the subject matter to say something else., but do you feel that is the only way to get your message across as it were?  

[00:03:13] Henry: I do. someone once said to me years ago, and he's, quite a distinguished producer in this country, when I asked him what he thought the a definition of the good film was, he said it's, a good story well told. 

[00:03:25] Henry: I've always thought that isn't good enough. I've always thought[00:03:30] that stories have to mean something, as you say. I've always wanted to make films that will stay with people, that they'll wake up. And, this is true of documentaries and feature films. I know I've seen a good film when I wake up the next morning and I'm find myself thinking about it.

[00:03:44] Henry: I wa I've always wanted to make films that actually stay with people. And, so that comes through with me in terms of the subjects that I take on principally, but it's also comes through, I hope, in the way that I make them, because I'm trying [00:04:00] always to construct them in a way whereby, Those greater meanings come through not, explicitly implicitly I hope. 

[00:04:11] Henry: Someone said to me the other day, and I think this has stayed with me, and maybe this is a cliche, I'd never heard it before, but they said , a director tells a story. A filmmaker has a story to tell. And I think that's an incredibly, I think that's true. It's certainly true of me. I think when I make films [00:04:30] I do have a story to tell. 

[00:04:32] Henry: I'm not entirely sure what it is. And if you probe me, I'm sure I could come up with some answers. But I'm drawn to stories and I'm drawn to telling stories that are helping me work out something. But I hope in doing that is also helping the audience understand something greater about themselves or in the world that they otherwise didn't know before they started watching the film. 

[00:04:53] Nigel: . I'm gonna be a bit of a devil's advocate here, only because it's just an interesting way to go or an [00:05:00] interesting way to analyze what films are for. But yeah, I am the same. I, make a film because I've got something to say with the material, but my career, I've made every different kind of film. 

[00:05:15] Nigel: Let's just say there's a big difference. A Henry Singer kind of film is a very particular kind of film. I don't think people know my kind of film particularly, even if they know me. But, so I use the material whether I'm making [00:05:30] I did F1 Drive to Survive, which is a very particular kind of film, but I've made a a very slow meditative PE piece about a language teacher, which is another kind of film. 

[00:05:40] Nigel: But even in the fun stuff, I'm using that material to create the same kind of meaning..  

[00:05:48] Nigel: You take something like Love Island, which I haven't seen, but I guess the ideas about it are about community and acceptance. [00:06:00] If you take it seriously, there's a group of people and other people are drawn into it, who's allowed into the group, who isn't allowed into the group. What's the nature of acceptability? 

[00:06:12] Nigel: If you're aware of that, when you're making that kind of film, you can deliver that kind of message. So when you wake up in the morning, as you say, you want people to be thinking about the meaning as much as the subject matter. It's a bit like the British, Australian [00:06:30] humorous writer, Clive James, who would write seriously about trivial subjects. 

[00:06:35] Nigel: So I, I'm not taking anything away from the, obviously there is a moment in time where you are dealing with a subject that needs to be dealt with because there's issues surrounding it that are important at the time.  

[00:06:47] Nigel: At what point are you aware of the meaning that you're trying to express with your story as you are developing the story, and how does that inform how you structure it, how you create it, how you tell it? 

[00:06:58] Henry: I just wanna pick on something you said before I [00:07:00] answer that, pick up on it, cuz I totally agree with what you've just said, but I think it's really important and you touched on it just to run with it a bit, that love island. Absolutely can be about community and acceptance and bullying or I, and I too have never watched it. 

[00:07:17] Henry: So the two of us are talking about trying to talk intellectually about something we've never even watched. But I think what's incredibly important to remember is yes, I think within Love Island one could [00:07:30] tease out those ideas. There's no question it's embedded in the material, but what matters is your motivation in making that episode of Love Island. 

[00:07:40] Henry: It's, an entertainment program that the, people who are making it are, trying to entertain. So they will use the material. To entertain. 

[00:07:49] Henry: And you and I both know as filmmakers, you can look at a sequence and you can cut it in a myriad different ways. You can cut it for entertainment, for laughs, for, oh, let's make [00:08:00] this, person look silly. Or you can cut it in a motivation with a motivation of I want to make this sequence about a community, an acceptance in a community and trying to be accepted or failing to be accepted in the community. 

[00:08:14] Henry: And you would cut it in an entirely different way using different syn, et cetera. So yes, love Island has within it's potential to be about those big themes that you mentioned. It's in the hands of the filmmaker or the [00:08:30] director to decide. What they wanna use that episode for and what they wanna use the, seq, the individual sequence for. 

[00:08:38] Henry: And I think that's just incredibly important for filmmakers to know what, why are you making this film? What's your motivation for making this film? I think if you and I edited Love Island or were series directors of Love Island, it would look and feel. Entirely different in my hands. It would probably be quite a [00:09:00] wrenching watch but I like to think in my hands people would come away and really think about the, ideas that you've mentioned. Anyway, so that, I just, I thought that was interesting what you said and I wanted to pick up on it. 

[00:09:12] Henry: I slightly in this digression of forgotten your  

[00:09:15] Nigel: question. No worry. It's not, I'm not agreeing with disagreeing. It's more of a conversation. Cause this is great just to say for people who are listening to this, Directors talking unto director is quite rare because we're isolated individuals. 

[00:09:28] Nigel: So thank you again [00:09:30] for, taking this time. We don't talk enough and I'm glad we got back in touch with each other. Yeah, because this, these are subjects I think I'm gonna learn a lot from. These conversations I'm having with people.  

[00:09:41] Nigel: I just wanna go into that a little bit further because I'm talking about how you choose your subjects. 

[00:09:45] Nigel: I think that the entertainment aspect is a way of delivering your film. It's an approach to dramatizing and a surface expression of how you want people to engage with [00:10:00] it. Okay. But you can still embed the ideas, like a comedy can embed serious themes. When you say you're in an edit, and we could both edit it different ways. 

[00:10:11] Nigel: It comes down to having the skill to make a choice about how you want to do it. You say you want it to be intrinsic, you don't wanna preach, you want it to be embedded in the material. 

[00:10:23] Nigel: Very specific question, how did you learn your filmmaking techniques? Was it conscious, was it [00:10:30] unconscious? Where did you learn how to tell a story in a particular way?  

[00:10:35] Henry: I think it was entirely . Unconscious. And, it may, that may go back to my rather crude definition of what's the difference between a director and a filmmaker. 

[00:10:45] Henry: I I, nearly went to business school when I was 27, believe it or not. I went to Yale and I spent an hour there and my eyes glazed over, not with tears, but with I couldn't focus. And I turned to my then [00:11:00] girlfriend and said, I. I, this, I, we, I, we, I don't need to give you thumbnail bio, but my dad was a, Jewish immigrant America, and I was the only boy who had four sisters, and he wanted me to succeed in a very particular way. 

[00:11:12] Henry: And I, played ball as we say in America until I finally got to Yale. And I realized it was like going to the altar and looking at the woman and saying, God, I feel awful, but you're, I just don't wanna marry you. And that's what, and I, had this watershed moment where at the age of 27, I [00:11:30] didn't know what to do with my life. 

[00:11:31] Henry: And I decided to become a journalist or a filmmaker because the people around me that I felt were doing the kind of work I wanted to do, where journalists are filmmakers. So I think I I was drawn to those worlds because there was the public service aspect that we've already talked about, and there was also, I think filmmaking for me in some way has been almost a form of therapy. 

[00:11:57] Henry: It's, it is working, figuring out things [00:12:00] about myself and the world. And so I think my I never had a mentor. I never I never went to film school. I've never read a book about filmmaking techniques. I think, and that's partly probably laziness as much as anything else. So I just it's been entirely unconscious, but I but, I have a very particular sensibility, which we've already talked a bit [00:12:30] about, and I am absolutely drawn to stories that I think are important, that matter, that need to be told, that I think reveal something about the world that we don't see, which we need to see. 

[00:12:45] Henry: And. In terms of you use the, I agree that entertainment is an incredibly important part of storytelling. It I, never use the word entertainment cuz it's quite a loaded word, but I use the I think compelling [00:13:00] engaging strong story. And I've always, I'm lucky because I've always been drawn to stories that matter. 

[00:13:10] Henry: And stories that matter are inherently dramatic. If you're making a film on the death of Baby P a 17 month old child. And the aftermath of Baby P and how social workers and a single doctor were, scapegoated and several of them almost killed [00:13:30] themselves. And powerful forces like the Metropolitan Belize and Great Ormond Street Hospital who were equally responsible hid behind the scenes. 

[00:13:38] Henry: That's an inherently dramatic story. The Falling Man, the film for which I'm most known for. People throwing themselves off the World Trade Center on, nine 11. These are inherently dramatic emotional stories. And as I say, I'm lucky because the kinds of work I've always, the kinds of stories I'm drawn [00:14:00] to are inherently dramatic. 

[00:14:02] Henry: So it's not as though I'm making a comedy and trying to smuggle in big ideas. The, my ideas, the ideas I'm interested in exploring are embedded in these incredibly dramatic stories.  

[00:14:15] Nigel: I remember when you made Falling Man, I think in an edit suite next door to me. 

[00:14:18] Nigel: For a while in the production company, we were both struggling away. Yes. I was taking a documentary about Leonardo Da Vinci. Yes. I was gonna say, and DaVinci, the Da Vinci detective was the [00:14:30] hook. I'm sorry, that was the name of the film. But Leonard DaVinci code, I think it was, yes. But we found a great science history thriller aspect to that story. 

[00:14:39] Nigel: But your story, as soon as I heard the title and saw the picture, I thought, there's a film. Yeah, there's a film because it's focused on an image, which is very important because you're making a film. Intrinsically, I'm making a film about how people appreciate an image. Wow. As a director, there's a long [00:15:00] way you can go with that. 

[00:15:01] Nigel: Also, you are talking about a subject that is inherently engaging, although the word engagement has been stolen from us. But anyway, it's inherently engaging. So how you tackle that film is interesting because I did a nine 11 film more recently. My fear. Was that the material would overwhelm the storytelling. 

[00:15:25] Nigel: Our film was made from u user generated content. So the way that [00:15:30] people realized what was happening as it was happening, and I felt that the archive that the researchers and other producers managed to get was, so powerful in itself that I had to work really hard to try and say something with it so that people wouldn't just watch it and go, oh my God, that was shocking. 

[00:15:50] Nigel: That was extraordinary. It was just the wow factor, yeah. A sensitive wow factor. The wow factor when you were tackling the falling man, and let's talk [00:16:00] about that. To me, that's a gift to be, have something so focused, one image, one frame as a storyteller, if you've got the skill as a storyteller to pull it off. 

[00:16:14] Nigel: To focus a very big idea about a very specific thing rather than being overwhelmed by the magnitude of the event itself. So how did you feel when you saw the image and when you [00:16:30] were, I dunno whether you found or were given, but you came upon this story. What was your approach to bring that to life? Do you remember , how you came to it? 

[00:16:39] Henry: I, do remember how I came to it, and it's slightly embarrassing because I remember the film is based on a piece that was an Esquire magazine by an incredibly talented nonfiction writer named Tom Au. And I remember reading the piece it was published in The Observer. I remember [00:17:00] reading the piece and just being absolutely overwhelmed by the piece and talking about it with my next door neighbour. 

[00:17:05] Henry: And it never occurred to me, wow, this could be a film. I and I, that's been true in my career quite a lot. I, read something, I go, wow, that's incredible. Never even occurs to me that, wow, maybe there's a film to be made. And Channel four called me up a good while later and said, would you be interested in making a film on this? 

[00:17:22] Henry: And it was like a light bulb moment. Geez why didn't I think about that when I read the piece?[00:17:30] You should go back and read the piece because it's an it's, an extraordinary piece. And I, I think probably the first time I remember seeing that image was probably when I read that piece. 

[00:17:40] Henry: And it is I'm, not gonna say anything that anybody else will have felt when they saw it. It, is such an extraordinary image. First of all, there's, it's a beautiful image. And, that sounds awful to say, but. The way the gen, the gentleman by [00:18:00] sex the lines of, the towers is, aesthetically extraordinary. 

[00:18:06] Henry: The fact that he looks composed is so counterintuitive. And of course, as you'll remember from the film, it, as you say, it's one frame and the other frames, the other 12 frames. He's like the other jumpers flailing around as, one would as, some as, a body would, as a human being would flying through the air. 

[00:18:28] Henry: But it's so [00:18:30] arresting that image, and I do think that film was a gift. Because so many people, I. Have talked to me through the years about that film and about that image. To take and, this is a slight digression, but somebody once sent me a very experienced producer, now retired, said, do you know, Henry, you've got to realize that 80, 85% of the success of a film is actually the subject matter. 

[00:18:57] Henry: And there's a reason nine 11 films are made [00:19:00] over and over again because that is an event that is seared in so many people's consciousness. And that if you and, so as you say, to have a single image to be, to open up that day and that event is a gift. And I think that's why, and I don't take credit for it. 

[00:19:16] Henry: That's why that film has partly been successful. It is such a micro, it's it, opens up. You can open up so much about that day with that single image you have. And this is part of the storytelling. Cause I know we're here to [00:19:30] talk about story. You have that wonderful narrative spine of the image who took it. 

[00:19:36] Henry: How it was edited how, it was distributed across the world, how people reacted to it, and then of course, what might be called a detective story, where a couple of journalists and Tom being the second one tried to find out who the falling man was. So you have, you just have a great storytelling spine from which to hang some bigger ideas. 

[00:19:57] Nigel: Your bigger ideas are the, are the things that [00:20:00] obviously make it special because otherwise it would be a superficial a few superficial kind of detective investigation thing, . One thing that would occur to me with that image, and this is where you start unpacking the meaning of the film, is that film appears to show him calm, but there's no truth in that. 

[00:20:20] Nigel: It's just a frame that can be interpreted that way, because when you look at it in the context of all the other frames, he could be just as panicky or flailing or disorganized or whatever you might [00:20:30] feel. And in fact, When gravity takes over what you feel is irrelevant because you're a body falling through air. 

[00:20:37] Nigel: So it's all projection. 

[00:20:39] Nigel: Yes. It's exactly about projection. It's about reflection or projection and The most. Look, everybody in that film is such a strong contributor, no surprise, people who lost family members, the chef at Windows on the World went to pick up glasses at the opticians at the base of the World Trade Center. 

[00:20:59] Nigel: So [00:21:00] arrived to work late, which saved his life, was very close to Jonathan Bri, who is the gentleman who were 99% sure. May have been or may have, let's just say, may have been the following man. So that it's an extraordinary ensemble of contributors as or characters as people might say. 

[00:21:19] Nigel: But the first among Equals really is Jonathan Riley's sister Gwendolyn. And she says something towards the end of the film, which I think encapsulates what the film is about. And she says [00:21:30] some, something along the lines of, I wish we spent less time trying to figure out who the following man is. 

[00:21:37] Nigel: Rather, I wish we spent time. Thinking about who we are when we look at it. And I think that is exactly what the film is. You, how you react to that image says everything about you. Yeah. There, there's the family who absolutely say that's, not our father slash husband, because he would never do [00:22:00] that. 

[00:22:01] Nigel: Suicide would be the last thing he would do. They see it as a suicidal image. There's Gwendolyn who you know, who says that they're, the p they the, there's segments of the American public who are so, angry that is published. It should never have been published. 

[00:22:20] Nigel: It's, an intrusion. The jumpers should never, they should be continued to be under the swept under the carpet because it's not American. Americans don't do [00:22:30] that. We should be glorifying the firefighters not focusing on the, jumpers. You've absolutely. I think that's why the film's successful. 

[00:22:38] Nigel: It's very much, but it's never explicitly said except by Gwendolyn in that moment that the, that film that image is a mirror is, a mirror for whoever rego, whoever takes the time to, to observe it  

[00:22:51] Nigel: One my favorite analogies or descriptions or, things I've understood is, the meaning of the word icon. 

[00:22:57] Nigel: It's an icon is designed to reflect back [00:23:00] at you yourself. Icons were flat images with metallic surfaces on them. The paintings, the Russian icons. You see yourself in it, and the simpler the image is, the easier it is. 

[00:23:16] Nigel: To, project yourself into it. The Falling Man could be a silhouette against black, against white. And you would know it it's like the opening of Mad Men, dare I say It was a Falling Man, and that's [00:23:30] just occurred to me. But that their, notion of they took a silhouette and they, very, in a very nuanced way, made it not quite a silhouette. 

[00:23:39] Nigel: Yeah. So there's grays flickering through it, but it's almost like your image or the image that you use of a falling man, they realized the power of a falling man extracted it and turns it into a piece of iconography. Yes. And used it for a completely different different, era. Let's put it like that. 

[00:23:59] Nigel: That level [00:24:00] of, intense thinking about what's real and what isn't and what's true and what isn't to me, One of the most exciting things about making a film, is that the same for you? What's the feeling that you have when you're getting to the bottom of things? 

[00:24:14] Nigel: I, think it's incredibly exciting. I think, but it's also, I, it's also really difficult. And I know you have Nigel, I have spent late in late nights in, in [00:24:30] cutting rooms trying to untangle a film. And on some level it's torturous. And so much of wrangling a film and in the cutting room you go, when you go shoot, you have a sort of sense of what you think the film's about. 

[00:24:46] Nigel: You then take the material into the cutting room and. It most of the time you're, jet you, you're within the ballpark to use an American expression. But there are times when finding what it's [00:25:00] essentially about is incredibly difficult. And you, and your editor, and it's really important to say it's you. 

[00:25:06] Nigel: The wonderful thing about filmmaking is, such a deeply collaborative endeavor. And you're never alone. You're actually never alone. And particularly in the cutting room and particularly late at night because you've got another filmmaker in the room, they happen to be called an editor who's, struggling in the same way that you are. 

[00:25:25] Nigel: So it's incredibly exciting. And when you find essentially what the film is [00:25:30] it, it's you look back and I'm sure you have, and you think, oh God, why did we stay up till 2:00 AM you know, night after night trying to get this? It's so simple now. Yeah. And in fact it's absolutely, it is never simple.

[00:25:43] Nigel: And it it's, And, when you get there, there's nothing there is, there, it is such an exciting feeling to use your term, but it's a hard road to get there. 

[00:25:53] Nigel: It really is. It's lovely sharing these edit stories because Yeah the joy and [00:26:00] simultaneously joy and depression. 

[00:26:02] Nigel: Why couldn't I have seen that a week ago? Because I've just simplified this down to what this is really about. And it was always there. Yeah. The other thing that I use a trick when a sequence isn't working. I think often what's going on is I'm, trying to create something that's not true. 

[00:26:21] Nigel: Yeah. And I say to the editor, what is the actual true truth about this? Let's not worry about making it entertaining. Let's not worry about making it work, cuz it's [00:26:30] not, what's the, what are we really trying to say with this? And that can solve so many problems because you worry about, you get caught up in the editing process and then you are worrying about one shot after another shot. 

[00:26:45] Nigel: Just, express the truth of it.  

[00:26:49] Henry: Exactly. But I, would just, add one thing to what you've said is, More often than not, it's less what are we trying to say with this and more What's the [00:27:00] material saying to 

[00:27:00] Nigel: us?  

[00:27:01] Henry: When you watch a film, and I do, I think this is unconscious certain films resonate with you and others don't. And I don't think it's necessarily the story or how it's cut. It's, actually the integrity with which it's been made. 

[00:27:18] Henry: And there's sometimes people say, oh, such a great film, and I could give you examples and I and, I won't because it would be, Besmirching certain films and certain filmmakers, but the, [00:27:30] I instinctively can tell when people, oh, that's a great film, such a great story. And I say it didn't really, I don't think it was such a great film. 

[00:27:37] Henry: And I think more often than not it's because I instinctively can tell, and I don't think it's because I'm a filmmaker, I think because I'm a human being, if something's been forced to say something that it actually doesn't say. And one, one of the things that I'm really proud of is somebody once said, me, Henry, when you, when I watch your films I can just [00:28:00] feel the integrity with which it's been made. 

[00:28:02] Henry: And I, and again, this is gonna sell sound self regarding, I don't mean it to be, um, But it, it is, well, the anecdote I'm about to tell you is, is, is alarming. Um, and, and, and I think ethics do, are, are a part of filmmaking that doesn't get talked about enough, if at all. Um, but I had there two women in, in, in stead, um, who have done my, um, I've done all my [00:28:30] transcripts, , literally for more than 20 years. 

[00:28:33] Henry: , and they said, one of 'em said to me once, we love, we love transcribing your interviews. Um, and I said, well, why? And they said, well, because first of all, we really like your films, but second of all, you always, you, you never misrepresent what people are saying. And um, I said, well, what you know, why is that so unusual? 

[00:28:54] Henry: And they said, you have no idea how unusual it is. And what's interesting is people who transcribe. [00:29:00] Listen to everything. Yeah. Sometimes editors don't have time to, to watch everything and listen everything. So, so they know exactly what contributors have said and then they compare that to the final film. 

[00:29:11] Henry: They and the filmmaker, most of the time the editor are the only people that really know every word of the interview. . And for, for these, for this wonderful woman to say that was, is is really rather distressing. And it gets back to this issue of, , feeling that a film doesn't [00:29:30] really have integrity because it's been manipulated in some way and someone has cut a sequence to say something that isn't, as you say, the truth of the, the truth in embedded in the or not inherent or embedded in the material. 

[00:29:44] Nigel: We'll be back with Henry in the moment. But I just want to jump in and remind you about the doc fix storytelling program. If you want to find out more about the program, which is there to help anyone, who's struggling to turn an idea. Into a great documentary story. [00:30:00] You can go to apply.thedocfix.com. I'll send you a case study where I go over exactly the process I use when working on documentary series and films. Like for me, the one drive to survive for Netflix. And natural history films such as Meerkats with a commentary by Sir David Attenborough. And if you've got any questions at all I'll be glad to help. And now, back to Henry and our conversation about honesty and intention in documentaries.  

[00:30:28] Nigel: And this is jumping back to, [00:30:30] um, uh, let's say honesty about the intention. 

[00:30:35] Nigel: I remember I was, I was se uh, I was on a series called Sun until I Die, another Netflix sports series. And I'm not into sports. But, , it was fascinating to me because, , the crew had gone off. It's a way of shooting films now that um, if people aren't aware, it happens more and more that you have, shooting producers. 

[00:30:54] Nigel: So they go off and film things and they bring it back to the edit and they give it to someone else who hasn't been on location [00:31:00] to put that material together in a way that is a good story. And you weren't Yeah. That their, their worlds apart. And, and a big part of what I was trying to do on that and subsequent, uh, series I was, I was, I was responsible for the storytelling, was to bring those worlds together because that's a problem. 

[00:31:20] Nigel: That's a, it is, that's a problem because the ethics just disappears in lack of communication. It's not even an intention. It's like, it, it's, it, it just not knowing the people. And [00:31:30] when I did Sunland that, my point is, uh, it was shot in a particular way and it was shot over a long period of time. People went out there and developed relationships with these football players in this town, with a football team that weren't doing very well. And what I tried to do to make it work when I was responsible for it, was to look at the nature of the relationship. Even if they didn't know the story they were getting, I knew that those shooting directors had gone all that way, given up whatever family life they had, even if they were [00:32:00] young, developed real relationships with those footballers to enable them to talk to them. 

[00:32:05] Nigel: And even if they weren't clear about the story, they were getting the truth of that relationship would make the stories have integrity and make good stories. And I just wanna say that that kind of, that applies at every level of when you're trying to make a story work. Just the best stories have integrity. 

[00:32:23] Nigel: You have a particular kind of film that you want to say a, a, a topic like a public service remit [00:32:30] almost that you're tackling. Yeah. So let's go back to one of the films , , betrayed Girls, was that the final title? 

[00:32:35] Nigel: That was the version of it that I, that it was about Dale Scandal. Yeah. Yes, it was the Child Abuse scandal. So I had a look at that only because, uh, someone who reads my writing about storytelling had a question about it, and she's very interested in, so I will, I will put that to you. But when I was watching that, as I watch a film, there are many things I look for, but I look for that key moment that tells me, [00:33:00] I mean, I trusted you anyway, but tells me the filmmaker has something to say. 

[00:33:04] Nigel: And to me there was a phrase someone used earlier. Uh, it was the first time it came into the film and it was, it was a collective activity. Someone used the word collective activity. I can't remember who it was. And I think, oh yeah, that's what it's about. 

[00:33:20] Nigel: It's about community on any level. And this is what I was reading into the film, the, the thematic argument as I call it, is the pluses and minuses [00:33:30] of community. You know, you have to think community is a good thing, but you can also see the constraints of a community. You know, how it controls people's behavior, how they can't break out of it. 

[00:33:41] Nigel: , how aware are you of a thematic argument that you're trying to deliver and how much just emerges out of. Instinct. Just this is a story that needs talent. 

[00:33:51] Nigel: . That's,  

[00:33:52] Henry: that's a good question. I mean, if I'm honest, it's more instinctive. I'm thrilled. I have no [00:34:00] memory of that line, of that piece of sync, if I'm honest. So I can't take credit and say, oh God, Nigel, I'm so thrilled I put that in there. And I was hoping that even if it was unconscious, that would be, it would emerge for people that, that was essentially what the film was about. 

[00:34:16] Henry: Um, you know, for me, two films in my, I'm, I'm, I'm very proud of The Betrayed Girls and I'm proud of my Baby P film, which I think, um, preceded it by three years. But they, they are films that are slightly. [00:34:30] Hedging towards news and public affairs or news and current affairs. They're very, um, you know, they're slightly more journalistic than I, particularly Baby P It's very, it's a really rather journalistic, quasi investigative piece, which, which is not my, uh, normal filmmaking territory.
[00:34:51] Henry: Um, so when I, when when I made The Betrayed Girls, to me that film, I mean, I guess maybe this is community, that film was [00:35:00] slightly kind of about the herd mentality that, you know, there, that so many people were, that film, that film wasn't about the scandal, that scandal, that story had  

[00:35:10] Nigel: broken by for people who know. 

[00:35:11] Nigel: I mean, just to kind of quickly summarize, it was about the child abuse scandals in Rochdale and the discovery that, uh, in that specific case, in a number of other cases, there was a commonality. In the abusers that they seem to come from a Pakistani are, the major, vast majority of them were from a Pakistani background. 

[00:35:29] Nigel: So highly [00:35:30] controversial subject matter. Okay. Just to clarify, cuz some people in other parts of the world Yes. Might not know that story. Okay. So, so the herd mentality,  

[00:35:39] Henry: well, the, it was, it was that, you know, that film was essentially about, people knew about this, you know, local journalists, local politicians, the police, uh, social services, all the people whose job it is to sort of safeguard us, safeguard community. 

[00:35:56] Henry: We're aware of this and yet they did nothing about it. It's, [00:36:00] it, it, that's the shocking truth of it. And we, we've seen it time and time again in, uh, in these grooming gang stories. And so the film was essentially about, um, it, it really had. I can't remember, four or five really brave individuals who were willing to stand up and be counted to say, this is wrong. 

[00:36:19] Henry: And we can't, we can't, we, we shouldn't and can't abide this. And, and, you know, and the film was really partly about class. These, these young, these [00:36:30] girls came from working class, or I don't know if it's the right term, underclass, poor, very poor backgrounds. Um, and it was about race partly that people were terrified of being, um, uh, tarred, uh, you know, being seen as anti-Muslim. 

[00:36:47] Henry: So, so this idea of community, if I'm honest, didn't, didn't occur to me. But what did occur to me was what is it about the culture that, um, where people are just willing to go with [00:37:00] the group and not stand? It's,  

[00:37:03] Nigel: it's another word for collectively. Yeah. You know what I mean? Collective. Yes. So, you know, that was clearly the message that was coming across. 

[00:37:08] Nigel: I just want to say, because I've got you here, Yeah, a line that really annoyed me. Not not your choice of line, but as a contributor. It was archive actually, right at the end there was a government inquiry and someone asked whether it was incompetence or indifference that caused this. And of course it was neither. 

[00:37:27] Nigel: It was a choice.  

[00:37:29] Henry: [00:37:30] That's a really powerful line. But you're absolutely right. And that says it all, doesn't it about, I mean, that's kind of what the film's about on some level, that you can get away with calling incompetence or indifference, but in fact, people actively looked the other way. .  

[00:37:45] Nigel: That's the power of being a filmmaker, isn't it? You are one voice and it's being independent and being brave. 

[00:37:52] Nigel: It wa it did strike me that, that sense of bravery, uh, and believing in yourself and [00:38:00] believing in your work, it's incredibly important, isn't it?  

[00:38:04] Henry: It is so funny you should say that cuz I had a chat with an executive coach two days ago because I've stepped back from filmmaking for the moment and I'm trying to build up sandpaper films as a, as a kind of boutique company that does just the highest end documentaries in the world. 

[00:38:24] Henry: Um, and she, and we, and we were, she, she said something like, Henry, it takes [00:38:30] a certain amount of courage, isn't it? To kind of back to, to, to back yourself as a filmmaker. And I'd never actually thought of that, but it, it does, you know, PE we're not brain surgeons, we're not. You know, elected officials who can send people into battle. 

[00:38:45] Henry: Uh, and but it is, it isn't, it is a scary thing. Yeah. To be a creative person to make films. I, I think it is, and, and you'll know this, Nigel, when you've, when you have your first viewing, which for, um, listeners who [00:39:00] don't know, what it is, is when you first show your material in however form it is, it's usually called a rough cut, um, to people that have given you the money to make it is a, it is a, it is a, it is a terrifying moment because it is, you feel very vulnerable and you feel you're really exposing yourself. 

[00:39:16] Henry: Um, and I've taken on, I mean, I look back on some of the films I've made. I made this film in Kenya, I don't know, 10 or 12 years ago. About, uh, the murder of a sort of filmmaker turned conservationist, um, in Lake Naasha. And I went [00:39:30] out there with very little access, having given money, um, uh, you know, to make the film. 

[00:39:35] Henry: And in retrospect, I, I, I think God, w you know, what was I thinking? And I, I, you know, and I managed to pull it off. Um, but it was, it, it is a, on some level, it's a terrifying way to go through life. Um, if, if you believe in something and if you feel you've got something to say, you know, I think there are, and maybe this is a, again, going back to the filmer slash director difference, [00:40:00] you know, I, I think if you're a director, um, may, maybe this is unfair and you're doing different kinds of work. 

[00:40:05] Henry: Maybe it's not quite as scary, but maybe it is. I, I remember, here's a film. This takes you back 30 years. There's a film made. Which is an, I think it was called Heart of Darkness, and it was about the making of Francis Ford cop's, um, apocalypse Now. Yeah. And it's an extraordinary film. I was at the BBC at Kensington House making my first film, and it was a film about Francis Ford Coppola. 

[00:40:29] Henry: [00:40:30] I can't tell you the obstacles he had making that film. Um, it was, you know, Martin Sheen had a heart attack. They'd bar the, there was a kind of war next door. Wife directed  

[00:40:41] Nigel: that. His wife directed that  

[00:40:42] documentary.  

[00:40:43] Henry: I, I think he co-directed it. Yes, it was, it was. Um, and I remember watching it thinking, oh my God, that's my experience on screen. 

[00:40:51] Henry: And of course he's making this multi-million dollar, you know, uh, epic, you know, incredible icon, iconic film. And I'm making my first [00:41:00] documentary at the bbc and yet I, I, I, I felt everything that he must have been feeling,  

[00:41:05] Nigel: I was the same. Funny enough, I was making my first, uh, documentary. I actually made it outside cuz I just left in order to. 

[00:41:12] Nigel: Funny enough, um, uh, take control of the idea because I wanted to make it my way. So I kinda left the BBC in order to make it. But maybe it's not bravery, but I certainly remember the fear. It's funny, it's like I remember the, the, the negative emotion and, and uh, it, it's [00:41:30] funny because I was speaking to my agent. 

[00:41:32] Nigel: I actually have an agent for factual, and he said, um, I asked him What, you know, what makes good directors in your experience in the ,industry? . And he said, uh, resilience. He said, it's a real character. You just keep going. You don't get knocked back. Yeah. And because I've been around so long, I guess I have it, but I've never thought of myself as having resilience. 

[00:41:52] Nigel: I thought I've, I guess my interpretation of its that I get scared, but I keep going. Yeah. [00:42:00] Is, is the way I would say it. Well, no, I, you're  

[00:42:02] Henry: right, I'm the same way. And bravery is probably too, giving us too much credit. But it is this, this coach said, it's about, you know, I. Backing yourself. You know, having the confidence to, and yeah, there are times my confidence is more than wavered. 

[00:42:14] Henry: Trust me. Yeah. You'll know this. There are times where you have no confidence and you don't sleep the night before a shoot and you think, I don't know what I'm doing here and this, this thing is a disaster. I mean, particularly early in my career, this is a disaster. You  

[00:42:29] Nigel: actually, a funny enough, [00:42:30] early on it was really good. 

[00:42:31] Nigel: I don't think I was worrying too much. Oh really? I had this very weird experience of the first films I made where like, wow, this is great. And it gave me a good, you know, good few years of credit because the first one worked out really well. I'm only taking it from my experience and I remember I made this film, the Language Master. And I did years of development on it and persuasion of the characters to take part. And I pitched it and sold it. But the moment I sold it I thought, oh Christ, I've gotta make this now.[00:43:00]  

[00:43:00] Nigel: And at that, the fear of Yeah. Seeding to persuade someone to back you, you kind of want to under persuade them. You want to persuade them cause you want them to give you money. Yeah, yeah. But you don't want to like overcommit. Yeah.  

[00:43:16] Henry: Don't make me do it now.  

[00:43:18] Nigel: Exactly. I hope something awful happens. And uh, funnily enough for me that the series I was making it for was canceled. 

[00:43:26] Nigel: Oh right. But they get, but the good thing is they turned it into one off at [00:43:30] BBC two at 9:00 PM on a Sunday, which like years ago, I know. Talk about a win. Exactly. It was gonna be at 5:00 PM on a Saturday afternoon on BBC two. Right. And it was 9:00 PM on a Sunday evening. And as you know, scheduling, it's another thing that's out of your control. 

[00:43:47] Nigel: Yeah, when they choose to put it on, which is different in the streaming world. Okay. But it's that, I guess you kind of answered it, that that kind of, you back yourself, you back yourself that you can do it. Now, where does that confidence come from? For [00:44:00] me, and, and we are different in, in, because you said you didn't read a book, you don't have mentors. 

[00:44:05] Nigel: I read every single possible book there is on film directing. Right. I have read every book there is on storytelling. I have sought out mentors as film directing, camera blocking, you know, I've studied it all and my confidence comes on. 

[00:44:20] Nigel: It comes from skill. On, on, on, uh, authentic skill and technique because I know that that is [00:44:30] the thing that will always be there for me, for your early films, where did the confidence come from?  

[00:44:37] Henry: I didn't have a lot of confidence in my early films. But you had enough to make  

[00:44:41] Nigel: the film?  

[00:44:42] Henry: Well, I had enough to make the, but I made them in kind of a state of terror most of the time. 

[00:44:47] Henry: I, I think in late in my later work, um, I, I just came to understand that filmmaking is partly about holding your nerve as much as anything else. And it, you know, if you've made enough films [00:45:00] after a while, you'll know, even if things are feeling rather fragile at the moment and a little scary, um, uh, it'll come good in the end because it's come good in the end. 

[00:45:11] Henry: In the past, and you've been in that space mm-hmm. Enough times to know. This is actually part of, uh, I don't wanna say journey. Uh, this is part of the process. Part of the process is it's very uncertain and it, you know, research the shoot early in the [00:45:30] edit that terrifyingly sometimes late in the edit. I mean, the Falling Man took a long time to come together. 

[00:45:36] Henry: Mm. Other films of mine have taken a long time to come together. And you have to, you have to hold your nerve in the face of uncertainty. And as a young director, as a young filmmaker, you don't really know that yet, or I didn't know it yet because I hadn't done enough to know. Stick to your guns. Hold your nerve. 

[00:45:56] Henry: Uh, trust your instincts, um, [00:46:00] and keep going and it'll, you'll be, you'll, you're gonna be okay in the end.  

[00:46:05] Nigel: I think what's important is that you have someone else who supports you through that. That's the value of a mentor, isn't it? Because you say it's a community. Yeah. You can't do that by yourself because unless you're very lucky, you are gonna make mistakes. 

[00:46:19] Nigel: Yeah. You're gonna see things you don't like. Classic thing that I get from people I work with is they've watched, they've made their film, they're, they think they've got a fine cut, [00:46:30] yet they know it isn't as good as it could be, but they don't know what to do to make it better. Yeah. You need that support. 

[00:46:37] Henry: Oh God. You do. And I, I, I think one of the things, um, and I, you know, uh, cinema documentaries, feature docs for tv, TV series. I think one of the things that is a little distressing in the business at the moment is that most executive producers, um, haven't been filmmakers, haven't been directors, It's quite [00:47:00] rare, uh, to work for some and, and, uh, you know, one, one of the things I'm trying to do as an exec, I, I see my role as kind of enabling filmmakers. 

[00:47:08] Henry: Yes, I'm a liaison between the people that have given the money and the filmmaker or the director. But, um, you know, I've been there and I know, I know what filmmakers need. I know how scary it can be at times. I know the support they need. And certainly in the cutting room. And you've been there, Nigel, I've been there. 

[00:47:26] Henry: You know, you, you show you, you know, the film's not working. [00:47:30] You, you, you've been living the film for months, if not years. You know, my last film took six years to make. And you know, it's not working. You're kind of ashamed to show it, but you're, you're incapable at that point because you're in the weeds. So much of stepping back and being able to kind of, um, assess where, why, where or why it's going wrong. 

[00:47:51] Henry: And that's where several times, uh, in my career, someone has come in and been and been able to say, And I like to think I've done it for [00:48:00] others, for other filmmakers. Look, the material's great in this word, but I, you know, I think essentially blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, uh, you know, you wanna hug them because they, because they've opened a door for you and you, you see a way forward. 

[00:48:13] Henry: I live in Harston, which is kind of a sort of gritty immigrant area in my office. Was in a, in the Methodist Church, which is a decay building, a five minute walk from here. Um, I didn't have wifi. I got the wifi. I'm from the Burger King on the parking lot out the window. It's a metaphor for where I was in the industry, [00:48:30] which was very, I got to make my big feature docs. 

[00:48:33] Henry: I was left alone, but I was, you know, I was never part of the kind of infrastructure. So I've always, I guess I've always been an outlier. And I, and I think that's, I mean, on some level what we are talking about is it's a profession for people who have to kind of sink or swim on their own. Whether, whether the BBC had a structure at one point where you were mentored or not. 

[00:48:56] Henry: Ultimately, it, you are [00:49:00] kind of, you are kind of on your own. And I, I, you know what we talked about earlier, the shooting producers and these edit producers. Yes. There are machines now that crank out these long series. But that's not filmmaking. That, that's kind of, that's almost, it feels when you have d when, when you have people, as you pointed out, who were divorced from the relationships on the ground. 

[00:49:26] Henry: And it sounds like what you did was so, [00:49:30] so good for that series. When you break up that relationship, and I'll give you an example using the Falling Man at the end of the Falling Man, the sort of the exec and the commission editor, channel four said ca, you know, can't we definitively say that Jonathan Briley was the falling man? 

[00:49:46] Henry: And I said, no, a, we can't because it's just not true. Yes, same clothes, et cetera. But two, I looked in the eye of Gwendolyn Bradley and I said, don't worry. I would never say Jonathan, your dear [00:50:00] brother Jonathan, was um, uh, you know, the Falling Man because we know it's not true. And because that was one of her fears. 

[00:50:08] Henry: And yet when you divorce those relationships, you, that's where the lack of ethics comes in. Cuz people can push you and say, well let's say it'll make, but you know what it, it'll make a better film. It won't make, and I said, no. Well, of course it destroys the film because  

[00:50:21] Nigel: it destroys your argument. Because the point they're not knowing is why it's icon iconographic. 

[00:50:29] Nigel: If [00:50:30] you knew it wouldn't be the falling man, it would be that person. So it's kind of destroying the meaning of your film that it's, that would be, no, that's not what the film's about. What were you watching and understanding about why this film mattered that made you want to do that?  

[00:50:46] Henry: Tom Juno says it at the end, doesn't he says, . You know, it's, he's like the fallen, uh, fallen the grave to the unknown soldier. , but I'm making the point about the sort of the . The divorce of layers and how un how ethics then [00:51:00] gets, you know, you people who build the relationships, who look in the light of the eyes and say, trust me with your story. 

[00:51:08] Henry: Yeah. I'll treat it with the sensitivity and the dignity that it deserves when they do that. And then they're not in involved in the cutting room. That's incredibly dangerous.  

[00:51:19] Nigel: Now, uh, I don't wanna keep you for, for loads longer, but Anne asked me to ask you something about the betrayed girls because she had a very, uh, an interest in the subject and she, she talked about how, uh, three [00:51:30] girls, which was a drama, did particularly well at, at, at bringing that experience to the, uh, of that child sexual abuse, uh, case to the audience through drama. 

[00:51:40] Nigel: And she talked about, as a news report, they would use abstract imagery, uh, to represent the child exploitation, you know, uh, she said, uh, endless shots of car lights, first person's anonymized accounts, moving car shots, and all those things to, to fill that [00:52:00] representation. 

[00:52:01] Nigel: How did you grapple with the problem of representing the actual. Event that was described, and, and do you feel that you did that well? Or by the choices that you made?  

[00:52:14] Henry: Well, I mean, I think in the, I, I think look, particularly the kinds of films I've made, I mean, I made a film. For example, that, um, for I T v years ago, without any commentary about, you know, and again, important subject [00:52:30] matter inherently very dark subject matter about a mother who, um, uh, killed her toddler because she was having a psychotic episode, um, and thought he was gonna be tortured to death. 

[00:52:41] Henry: So she wanted him to, to die in a way that was less painful. I mean, incredibly dark, but I, I made it because though it, it, in particularly in this country with the tabloid press, um, those mothers are so demonized when in fact something like ni 80 or 90% of [00:53:00] them are, um, suffer from mental illness or psychosis. 

[00:53:03] Henry: And it's not like any mother would naturally do that to their child. Um, I think so that, that, that, um, Those events, the, they're, they're best told in, in a completely un graphic way. Um, you don't, you never wanna kind of, you know, reconstruct that kind of event. Uh, you know, a big moment in the Falling Man [00:53:30] actually is. 

[00:53:32] Henry: You know, I looked at lo lots and lots and lots of imagery of people falling from the sky. And at one point I realized, my God, that's the Falling Man. There it is in video and it's used over Gwen and Riley talking, and it's in slow motion and it's got extraordinary music over it by, um, Uh, by Dario Marelli, who no longer works with me as a, as a small documentarian. 

[00:53:56] Henry: He's won an Academy Award and been nominated for two others. So he's, [00:54:00] you know, and we haven't talked about music and the importance of music, but, um, you know, that that was quite a thing to show that moment. Um, and you have to, whether you show it in slow motion with music as we did in the Folly Man, or whether you describe it, you have somebody describe things and you just hear their voice. 

[00:54:20] Henry: You don't even see their face as there, there's a moment in the Betrayed Girls when, uh, and I won't repeat it, but one of the, um, young women describes [00:54:30] sort of her gang rape in graphic detail and just hearing her do it with an actor's voice, by the way, um, is enough. You know, you would never in, in the Blood of the Rose, the Kenya film, there's a moment when Joan Root is murdered, and all I did was just do a slow. 

[00:54:49] Henry: Um, tracking shot down a hallway and just, uh, sound and use sound effects of music. You, I, I just think a things are best left to the imagination and [00:55:00] B, graphics depictions of the kinds of stories I tell, um, don't add anything. . , they just don't, they actually detract from it. Um, um, and I don't know if that  

[00:55:12] Nigel: answers no, I think, I think I, I think, I hope that we answered a lot of what you were saying anyway in, , in the rest of the conversation that we had. 

[00:55:19] Nigel: Just to kind of wrap up because I think we've covered a lot of things. Here is the kind of films that you make now, is there a place for them? 

[00:55:28] Henry: I think it's a, it's a tough [00:55:30] place to be at the moment, but I think it's, if I'm honest, I think I've always found it difficult. It's not, well you, one of the films I'm most proud of is a 90 minute. 

[00:55:40] Henry: Feature documentary that was on BBC one back in 2004, maybe about my relationship with a compulsive gambler. So Phil, my shot myself, and I remember the review saying this slow, painstaking film. Um, I, it was, it was a great review, but even back then, we're talking [00:56:00] more than 20 years ago, the kinds of work I like to do sort of didn't have a place. 

[00:56:05] Henry: I mean, I've, I've occupied, I occupied the bbc, this very slender public service niche, um, which, and they, and they call them then, and they call them now reputational films. Um, but they're, it's a hard road to furrow and I'm constantly feeling attention in the company that I'm now co-running of. You know, films that are more overtly [00:56:30] commercial to keep the company going. 

[00:56:32] Henry: And then films that fall under maybe the more of the public service remit and find, and always, I have to say, trying to find films that marry the two. And I think one of the, one of the answers that I found and we found is trying to do, and, and the following man is an example, sort of big tabloid stories that everybody wants to read about or, or watch about, but then giving them layers and angles and [00:57:00] sensitivity, um, and grace and making them beautifully where people come away from it and they've learned something or new, different ideas have been provoked. 

[00:57:09] Henry: The truth of it is, is those big tabloid stories grab us for some reason, all of us, not just people that, um, might read the Sun, they grab us because there's something essentially, I don't know what the right elemental human, I don't know the right word. And if you could take those stories and do them in a really intelligent, reflective way, [00:57:30] that's a real sweet spot. 

[00:57:32] Henry: Um, and that, that's one way of grappling with that, that, that, that challenge cuz it is a challenge. You know, I think that sort of the, almost the best films you can see now in the documentary genre are really European film festivals. And these are films that people have worked on for years. They've maxed out their credit cards because they're made with passion and commitment and they have to make those films. 

[00:57:58] Henry: And they're, and they are [00:58:00] creative in a way that, and they may be about foreign stories in a way that, um, television and cinema docs no won't get an audience. And, you know, people can have that career. I've never wanted that career because for me, the point of filmmaking is to try to get a lot of people watching. 

[00:58:20] Henry: So they think about things in a new and different way. And if you're a successful, uh, festival, film might be seen by a thousand people around the world. For me, that's never been [00:58:30] a good enough reason to make films. But maybe that's because I'm, if you think of documentary as a kind of bluntly, as an intersection between journalism and art, I'd probably hedge a little bit more on the journalism side. 

[00:58:43] Henry: Whereas someone who's really an artist, full artist, just the making of it, whether it's watched or not, is, is maybe more important.  

[00:58:53] Nigel: Thank you so much. That's a very clear representation of what you do. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I'm really looking forward to seeing what you [00:59:00] produce outta sandpaper and going back and checking those out. 

[00:59:03] Nigel: So, thanks so much for the interview. It's been a delight catching up with you even at this distance. , what I'm gonna do is to put a lot of links to your films that I can see in the, uh, information in the show notes so people can discover your work. If they don't know it, hunt it down, see it for themselves. So good luck with everything you're doing and, uh, we'll catch up again soon. I hope  

[00:59:23] Henry: I've really enjoyed it, Nigel. 

[00:59:24] Henry: It was great. Thanks every so much.  

[00:59:26] Nigel: I hope you enjoyed that conversation and [00:59:30] found it useful. If you're interested in working with me and the doc fix all the links you need or in the notes below. There's a case study you could sign up for that goes into some detail on how the system has been used in some of the TV shows and documentaries I've been involved with.  

[00:59:44] Nigel: And there's a lot of information there you'll find useful and if you learn something want to get in touch, do let me know. You can send me an email to nigel@thedocfix.com. And I'd be happy to hear from you. And as a last thing, if you're enjoying this podcast and you want to support the show, 

[00:59:59] Nigel: And make sure it's [01:00:00] completely free. You could do a number of things. One is to just share it with someone who you think would benefit from it. That's one way to support it. And number two, take some time to leave a review. If you leave a review for the show on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, it just helps the algorithm to get in front of people who could benefit from it. The most.  

[01:00:19] Nigel: So that's all I've got for you on today's episode. Have a good rest of the day and I'll talk to you soon.