From editing Star Wars to hit Indie docs: Storytelling Insights from Col Goudie

When Col Goudie joined me as the editor on a documentary I was directing about the one-legged World War 2 flying ace Douglas Bader, they turned up in a flying jacket and walking on crutches with a limp.

It was a co-incidence. Col is brilliant, but not that method! But it does indicate something of the enthusiasm and passion of this hugely successful documentary and drama editor. 

As an editor, Col’s fingerprints are on everything from the blockbuster success of Star Wars Rogue One, the indie gem Monsters and multiple documentaries. And this episode isn't just a chat; it's a masterclass in the subtle art of documentary filmmaking and editing, with a sprinkle of blockbuster magic.

It shows how a filmmaker applies the same diligent skills across the board, from small-scale dramas to the sprawling intergalactic saga, revealing the unexpected kinship between low-budget and blockbuster editing techniques.

Editing is more than just cutting; it's about storytelling above all. 

We explore the kaleidoscope of Col’s experiences, from finding the essence of the story hidden within hours of improvised footage to the practical tips that can save you from the cutting room floor. As Col says, even the most unsuspecting cutaway can be the thread that stitches a scene together, showcasing the artistry in restraint and the power of a fresh pair of eyes on a project. This episode lays bare the thoughtfulness and adaptability that goes beyond the technical, tapping into the intellectual curiosity at the heart of filmmaking.

Concluding this  masterclass, we shift the lens to the technical wizardry of blending real with the unreal in visual effects, and the discipline required when directors craft shots for the editing room. From the invaluable quiet of neutral cutaways to the rhythm of music crafting emotional crescendos, our guest dissects the elements that transform good footage into a great film. 

Each tale and technique further cements the idea that the heart of filmmaking lies in preparation, adaptability, and the relentless pursuit of a narrative's truth. Join us for an episode that promises to inspire, educate, and elevate your understanding of the film industry through the lens of an editor's eye.

Are you interested in joining the DocFix program and working with Nigel?

Get started with our complimentary case study that shows you how the method is used in high-profile documentaries and to see if you are a good fit for what we do and how we work.

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Incidental music composed by Birger Clausen

Transcript

Col Goudie and Nigel Levy

Crafting the Narrative: Insights from a Film Editing Maestro, Col Goudie, on Indie Films to Star Wars

[00:00:00] Nigel: Hello, this is Nigel Levy, and welcome to the Doc Fix documentary storytelling podcast. In this episode, I'm talking with Col Goudie, the brilliant editor. Who's been in charge of mega-blockbusters, such as Star Wars Rogue One, which is regarded as one of the very best of the whole series, low-budget indie [00:00:20] hits, and a huge number of documentaries. As well as loaded behind-the-scenes insights, this has ended up as a real treasure trove of tips and hints into what it really takes to make a successful film. The solid advice about the filmmaking process from planning shooting.  

[00:00:35] And, of course, everything that goes on in the edit. I've known Col for many years. [00:00:40] And we talk about what I've learned from them. Common mistakes and ways of tackling your film which would make their job and yours so much more fruitful and get to a powerful, meaningful story. And while I have you, please do subscribe.  

[00:00:53] If you want to know when the next episode is going to emerge. If you want to find out more about me and how I work with people on their documentary, [00:01:00] storytelling skills at The DocFix. You can go to apply.thedocfix.com. That's apply.thedocfix.com. And, of course, there are details in the show notes at the end of this podcast. That said, here's my conversation with Col Goudie. 

[00:01:17] Nigel: There's lots of questions I want to ask you. 

[00:01:19] Nigel: One of the [00:01:20] things that, that just first came to me is, does it feel different to you now? Yeah. Now that you made Star Wars, you were the biggest Star Wars fan in the world. 

[00:01:31] Nigel: Did it feel different to you when you were actually making it?  

[00:01:35] Col: Okay, so two things. Firstly, I was not the biggest Star Wars fan on [00:01:40] that movie. It was unbelievable, I was 16 when Star Wars came out. So I went into it just at the, the age of not being a kid and not quite being an adult. 

[00:01:48] Col: And I was art college when it came out. The people working in the previous department and the storyboard artists, they'd been children when they first saw Star Wars, so they knew the name of every toy. Of [00:02:00] every character, they knew it all and I was like blown away because I was like, Oh, I, I kind of don't know this backstory folklore just as much as I think I do. 

[00:02:09] Col: And in terms of was it any different? No, it was a real surprise to me that I still utilized every bit of low budget filmmaking that I'd learned in the preceding 40 years [00:02:20] working on that film. It was all still useful because you're still creating things in your head and mocking them up the same way that you would on any film. 

[00:02:29] Col: Let's go back to  

[00:02:30] Nigel: your documentary starting because  

[00:02:31] Col: the people the people I work  

[00:02:33] Nigel: with are Looking at how to tell stories in the factual realm, right? Which is a very [00:02:40] special skill a very specific kind of skill and you that's where you started. That's your beginning wasn't it documentaries?  

[00:02:46] Col: Uh, it was actually both. 

[00:02:47] Col: I was very, very lucky because I went to film school, worked on both. First thing I ever edited was a documentary. and then the next one was drama and I kept flicking between them. And then I went to the BBC as a trainee assistant. and the great [00:03:00] thing about the trainee scheme at the BBC was that you spent six weeks in the cutting room. 

[00:03:03] Col: with a huge manual, literally learning every technical thing that you could about videotape and about film stocks, about sound recording, everything you can imagine, right the way up to transmission. and it was an exam course. You had to pass the exam to keep remaining as a trainee assistant, otherwise they'd sack you.[00:03:20]  

[00:03:20] Col: and then after the six weeks, you then, if you passed, you got to go for nine months. And be the third person, the trainee in a different range of cutting rooms. So you did the drama cutting room, which is the first thing I did was work with, Brilliant editor, Ken Pierce and Philip Kloss was the assistant. 

[00:03:37] Col: I was the trainee and the director was John Schlesinger. I mean, [00:03:40] you know, your brain, you're like, Oh my God, I'm working with John Schlesinger. and that was on an Englishman Abroad that we're just finishing off. And then we did another film called Z for Zachariah, with Anthony Andrews. So it was, I was sort of straight into that. 

[00:03:53] Col: level of incredibly high British television drama. and then I went to work in the documentary department in the music [00:04:00] and arts department over on Arena. And, you did stints on Panorama and Newsnight. Uh, you did schools, you did graphics, you, you worked through every, every department. You didn't do things like live sport and stuff like that because that was video editing. 

[00:04:13] Col: It wasn't film. We were literally cutting, physically cutting film in those days. So it was anything that had. had film department. So always flipped [00:04:20] between the two. And then when I was an assistant, my first editor that I worked with, Sue Wyatt, was cutting a drama series. So that was my introduction. And then after that, I worked with Keith Wilton and he was a documentaries editor. 

[00:04:31] Col: and Keith was the first person that gave him the chance to edit at the BBC because he would sort of go off on leave and give me the rushes and say, start putting it [00:04:40] together. And they're the best one ever. He came back once after he'd been on holiday, quite a prolonged holiday, and he came back and he said, how's it going? 

[00:04:47] Col: And I said, I've got my final viewing with the exec today. , I've got the whole, it's only a 30 minute doc. You know, it was a schools thing for B bbc. Uh, but he was, he was like, great .  

[00:04:58] Nigel: I did schools as well, actually. I did. [00:05:00] Brilliant learning. It's brilliant based education. The thing about schools that I love, they're very, very direct about the function of the film there. 

[00:05:08] Nigel: There's great clarity.  

[00:05:10] Nigel: And the great thing I think about that kind of programming is how clear the intention is, is just to teach this thing. So there's a real directness, you know, sometimes when you're [00:05:20] making, a more commercial thing, they just want it to be successful. Right. People to like it. And sometimes having a very, very clear goal is great when you're learning your craft,  

[00:05:29] Col: isn't it? 

[00:05:30] Col: It totally is. It's, you know, we always say, whether it's a documentary or a drama. It's story, story, story. Obviously in factual, it's get the facts across. [00:05:40] It's what is your documentary about. In drama, it's what's the story and what's the emotional through line for the characters. All  

[00:05:46] Nigel: right, I'm going to ask you a very, very simple question. 

[00:05:47] Nigel: Simple questions always work well. What does an editor do?  

[00:05:51] Col: Ooh, that's a great question. Um, okay. Well, firstly, uh, what the [00:06:00] editor, what an editor does is they are the first member of the audience to see the film. The only difference is they are seeing the 200 hour long version of the film. Because they're seeing all the rushes. 

[00:06:12] Col: so when you watch the dailies, Anything that speaks to you. If you're watching a documentary, you make note of that was an important point, [00:06:20] you know, et cetera. Plot wise, if it's a drama, it's that was a brilliant take, a brilliant, I want to be on that character when they're speaking, I know that's not going to be the reaction shot. 

[00:06:31] Col: That's going to be the eight, the person speaking shot. So you're the first. Eyes and ears of the audience. And the next thing you've got to do is make [00:06:40] that into a viewable length. it's a process, it's a process of exclusion. You know, you start off with everything and then you're excluding superfluous information. 

[00:06:50] Col: So you're saying, Oh, I don't need that. You know, that's, I don't need that scene. It is the, the, the large scale of things. Uh, uh, and then the, the [00:07:00] macro is I don't need to be on that character. So it's all about excluding material that you've looked at in order to focus down. It's like you're starting off of a block of stone and you're chipping away, getting rid of stuff to reveal the sculpture that's within. 

[00:07:15] Col: Um, Scoot McNary, who was an actor in a film I edited called Monsters, [00:07:20] which was improvised. He said, um, man, we spoke a lot of rubbish for 120 hours and you smashed it into pieces and made a beautiful glass mosaic. And that was a really nice phrase to explain what an editor does. I  

[00:07:38] Nigel: hope that did. [00:07:40] But it's not everything that an editor does. 

[00:07:41] Nigel: And what I'm, what I'm interested in is your guiding principles. Because what you're doing is creating a story, aren't you? Yes. That's what you're trying to do. I mean, I've worked with you and it's been wonderful in that you're like a second brain in the room. You're the collaborator. You're the storytelling collaborator on the film. 

[00:07:57] Nigel: But, I've got my guiding [00:08:00] principles. Okay. About what I think a good story is. You know, what it has to do. Right. What about you? I mean, obviously you take on board what your director or writer has said. Yeah, yeah. Your principles. About the plot,  

[00:08:12] Col: for example. Right. My principles are, um, Like, if I'm looking at a scene, it will [00:08:20] be, can I come into this scene any later than was written and shot? 

[00:08:24] Col: Can I get out of it any earlier than was written or shot? so that there's more mystery going into the next scene.  

[00:08:30] Col: Now, this isn't a radio play, right? It's, it's a film. It's got visuals. Can the visuals tell the story? [00:08:40] Can the actor's expression tell the emotion? As much as if not more than the words, if they're doing that, how many words can I remove? So that's what I would say was quite a big guiding principle. I always used to think, you evolve as a, as a, as an [00:09:00] artist working, I mean, I'm 40 years now, 41 years I've been working as an editor. 

[00:09:04] Col: When I first started, I had this belief, you know, in the first 10, 20 years that it was all about the script. If you had a great script, that made a great film. And then as I got older and I started working with really amazing actors who were great at improv, I was like, actually it's [00:09:20] not. The script is not the, the be all and end all, the story is the be all and end all. 

[00:09:27] Col: And that can be told visually, it can be told by performance. What about  

[00:09:32] Nigel: the documentary though? Because let's go back to documentary because it's a different film, isn't it? People will come with rushes. Some people will be more [00:09:40] organized than other people. Right. Others will have a really good plan worked out. 

[00:09:45] Nigel: Yeah. About what this film should be, how it should work. Right. Some people just dump rushes on you and say, this is your problem now, in the nicest possible  

[00:09:53] Col: way. I mean, I think, I get, I was very lucky because when I started it was on film. So there just wasn't the amount of [00:10:00] footage being shot that there is these days. 

[00:10:02] Col: and I have edited documentaries, feature docs in very recent years, and I have, I've Drowned under the thousands of hours of footage, um, and it's two, it's two different ways of working. Obviously when there's a limited amount of footage, traditionally on a documentary your ratio would be about 20 to one, which be a blessing these [00:10:20] days. 

[00:10:20] Col: and directors would, I worked on documentaries at the beginning of my career where the director came in, we would sit and watch all the rushes for a doc. So all the interviews and all the actuality. And that would take us maybe a week to watch, you know, 20 hours or 40 hours of rushes. And then they would go away and shoot another documentary on the other side [00:10:40] of the world with no phone, no internet, and I'd be left to cut the film together. 

[00:10:44] Col: And then they would come back and I would show them for say a one hour slot, I would be showing them an hour and 10 hour and 15 minute long cut. that I had assembled. and I did that based on the conversations I had with them while we watched the dailies as to what was interesting to them and what was interesting to [00:11:00] me. 

[00:11:00] Col: I think it's when you watch the dailies, you start to think that's a great moment and you drag those pieces nowadays on, on, um, on an avid or, you know, uh, premier or any of those things, you make a selects reel and you can start pulling them up and saying, that's definitely, I definitely think that should be in the film. 

[00:11:17] Col: So you start to narrow it down from the 20 hours or the [00:11:20] 50 hours. If there's a huge amount of material. then I rely on the director who might have been on the film for many months or years before I've come on board. I did a, uh, feature doc, called Funny You Never Knew, which was about three American comedians from the 1950s. 

[00:11:36] Col: And, the director had watched all of their TV [00:11:40] episodes, had watched all their movies, and all the interviews with the people talking about them. And I would say to him, you put together the best bits that you know. That cover this part of the story. Uh, I blocked it all out on this wall behind me. I post it notes, colored post it notes. 

[00:11:56] Col: So, you know, introduction of how they grew up. That's going to be [00:12:00] one minute, right? The next scene, they first break into show business. That's going to be two minutes. what they became. Known for maybe three minutes and then how they got their first break into movies one minute And I blocked the whole thing out on the wall behind me and I went through and total up and I said look that's already If you allocate that [00:12:20] one minute of screen time, this movie is already three hours long So we know that's never gonna be more than a minute and it will probably be 40 seconds by the time we get the film down to length so go away and come back and give me 10 minutes of footage From which I can make that one minute sequence sing. 

[00:12:37] Col: So they would go away, bring back 10 minutes of stuff. [00:12:40] And that's exactly, I would rather than me watching, you know, an hour's worth of stuff about them. Being born and where they grew up is like, it's never going to be in the film. It's not waste our time. Let's move on. And so with each sequence, you should work your way down the timeline, cross my wall behind me. 

[00:12:54] Col: It'd be right. My first assembly of this scene is five minutes for a scene. I know it's going to be two minutes. It's still too long. [00:13:00] They've given me 10 minutes of stuff or 20 minutes. I've got it. It's fine. It's too long Col. Go through and smash it down again. What are the absolute crucial pieces of information that the audience need to know before we move on to the next part of the story? 

[00:13:12] Col: So that's what I do on a doc is I do a post it and a sharpie on day one. for every scene, every part of [00:13:20] the blocking out the whole film. Directors come in with very complicated pieces of Excel y type spreadsheets away over my head because I'm old and they're like, Oh yeah, no, I don't use post it notes anymore. 

[00:13:31] Col: I do this. And they sit there and after about two hours they go, Oh, it's much quicker using the post it notes, isn't it? And it is, [00:13:40] it's so quick. And also. Uh, just for people, for a technique, I use different colored post it notes depending on the character or on, um, this point that they are in their journey, their life story. 

[00:13:51] Col: The great thing about using colors for different characters, if you've got lots of different characters in a documentary, same thing's true of a drama, but it's great on a doc, is that you can look on the [00:14:00] wall behind you. And you can see there's too much of one character, and then you don't see them again for ages. 

[00:14:07] Col: And before you've even started cutting the video, well then that needs to go there. So you can block it all out. We need to see this character, this character, this character, and then come back to this character, this character. And you can look at your approximate times, timings for each scene as well. [00:14:20] And say, we've had one minute for him, and then two minutes for her, and then, you know, it's, it's, the balance is wrong. 

[00:14:25] Col: So you can do all that paper edit really early on. before you get into the nitty gritty of fine cutting stuff, or even assembling it. Now,  

[00:14:35] Nigel: what's really interesting is, is, I'm very analytical in one sense. I'm also [00:14:40] intuitive, and I like to prepare and think very, very hard about the overall film from beginning to end. 

[00:14:45] Nigel: And what about that process, your process, gives you insight about the overall meaning of the film? What stops it being a list? of things. how can you create a piece of work? I know I've got my methodology. [00:15:00] How do you create a piece of work? So at the end, you feel you've learned something bigger than the parts. 

[00:15:06] Nigel: Do you see what I mean? The big  

[00:15:08] Col: thing about documentaries though, is that I mean, I'm sure this has happened to you, Nigel, that directors will come into the edit suite thinking they know what the story is. And none of us ever do. The [00:15:20] film, while we're making it, tells us what the film is.  

[00:15:23] Nigel: But, and I'm gonna jump in, but, that thinking about what the story is, is incredibly important. 

[00:15:29] Nigel: Yeah. Because that is the thing that then becomes... The film, to me that process of really initially thinking incredibly hard. So you're focused [00:15:40] and you know what you're getting, you know why you're getting it. Even if that isn't what it ends up as, right, it's the funnel that is heading you towards what it eventually will be. 

[00:15:51] Nigel: Do you understand if you don't have a conception of what it  

[00:15:53] Col: could be? Yes, but I will, in the first instance, let the director and the production lead me [00:16:00] as to what they think the film is about, and I will do my best to do that. But while I'm watching it, things will trigger visually or what people are saying. 

[00:16:08] Col: And I'll say to them, have you considered that in fact, everybody talks about this moment, which is not really in your pre see, it's not in your original pitch document I read. But this actually seems to be what they're much [00:16:20] more concerned about as characters or is where this story should be going. So I will let the rushes speak to me in that sense and then you know if it's commentary led rewrite the commentary to better accommodate that. 

[00:16:33] Col: I 
 

[00:16:33] Col: I mean, I guess the first thing I do from working on documentary is, um, I [00:16:40] will immerse myself in reading and watching as much as I possibly can about that subject before I even go into the edit. particularly the reading. so that I've got an idea, if it's, you know, if it's something about history or, or whatever, you know, whatever it's about, really, I'll just try and immerse myself in it. I try to become as knowledgeable as the director is. That's [00:17:00] usually not possible in the time that I have on the project versus what they've had. 

[00:17:04] Col: But at least I want to know that I stand a fighting chance of touching in that one hour or two hour film, as much of the career highlights as to that, what that subject matter [00:17:20] is as is possible. I don't want to walk away and then discover, Oh, I didn't know that that should have gone in the film. How did, because the director forgot to mention it. 

[00:17:29] Col: So I will try and do that. and also to be honest, I do tend to take on films that I already have an interest in the subject matter. So I might actually, [00:17:40] often have more of a knowledge than, than the director, especially if the director has been brought in as part of a series. So I did a series about the first world war and I knew more about the first world war than the director did. 

[00:17:50] Col: I, I think as a filmmaker, you should be as well read as you can be. about as many subjects as possible. [00:18:00] It's always, it's amazing how useful that knowledge comes. 

[00:18:04] Col: That's what you're doing as a career.  

[00:18:06] Nigel: there was another editor friend of mine, Stefan Rinovich. I don't know if you met him, but he's a great friend of mine. And he would always, what, what convinced me that he was a really good editor is when I met him 30 odd years ago, he didn't talk about cutting.[00:18:20]  

[00:18:20] Nigel: he just talked about ideas, not about, and I thought, oh, editors are gonna talk about, I don't know, editing things, . You know what I mean? You know, transitions and cuts and style and stuff. And it was like, we had no conversations about that. It was much  

[00:18:36] Col: more about emotion. This is why  

[00:18:37] Nigel: the, yeah, exactly. 

[00:18:38] Nigel: This is how [00:18:40] people think. Yes, this is what people care about. This is what the story matters. This is what moves me about life.  

[00:18:48] Col: Yeah.  

[00:18:48] Nigel: You know, it's so funny, I get some students, and when I'm, when I'm teaching and initially they're talking about what camera should I use? 

[00:18:57] Nigel: What edit suite should I use? You know, I'm [00:19:00] really fast or do you know what I mean? How many K? What should the resolution be? And it's like No That is so far from What makes something good? Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting you saying you want  

[00:19:17] Col: to read the books. I've always [00:19:20] tried to take on subjects that, like we did, you know, a couple of things together. We did Air Aces about Douglas Bader, and I grew up as an air cadet. 

[00:19:29] Col: flying in prop airplanes. So it was like, yeah, of course, I want to do a film by Douglas Bader.  

[00:19:34] Nigel: And you, and you, you are a method, a method editor because [00:19:40] you, you know, in like a flying  

[00:19:42] Col: jacket. I always used to wear that flying jacket. That's the funny thing. And didn't even occur to me. It did not occur to me that I was walking into an edit about Douglas Bader. 

[00:19:49] Col: And at the time I'd had surgery and I was on crutches and I walked in in crutches. And a flying jacket and you turn to the producers and they'd never met me before and they probably just thought I was complete crazy [00:20:00] person and you said this is Col my editor they are very method and I just cracked up and I can see them thinking weird weird so however I do, like, I did a World War Two drama series called No Bananas, and, um, at the time I think it was the most expensive TV series the BBC had ever made, and, [00:20:20] um, I filled my cutting room, posters were all behind me, were all, uh, World War Two posters, like Careless Talk cost lives, and, you know, uh, it's Loose Lips Sink Battleships, and. 

[00:20:31] Col: And I had everything in my suite was like, I just want to go in and that's the world. I mean, I had all my world war two books and, you know, um, [00:20:40] so I think it is important to try and know a subject if you see, if you're doing a documentary about it, but I do the same with a drama as well. I I'll immerse myself in, I try and see what else is out there. 

[00:20:51] Col: And I try to not ever copy any of it and try and be fresh and original.  

[00:20:56] What we've done, it's talked about how well [00:21:00] things can go, but things don't always go well. 

[00:21:02] Nigel: I mean, I'm thinking about, you know, I've been in edits and I just can't find the story. I mean, what's your experience been of just the struggles that you've had when you're making documentaries? you never let something out of an edit suite that you think you haven't done your best with it. 

[00:21:17] Nigel: Absolutely. You work and work and work. [00:21:20] But by the same token, there are real problems sometimes, aren't they, in finding  

[00:21:23] Col: the story? it's interesting that you say that. Um, 

[00:21:31] Col: I think, first of all, I never, I never, never panic. I never worry about an edit, ever. It is, at the end of the day, it's just [00:21:40] filmmaking. And there's only three, I always think that it's that thing, it's kind of like, there's only three people in the world who really need to know what they're doing. That's the pilot flying your plane. 

[00:21:49] Col: It's the surgeon about to cut you open, and it's the person who's running a nuclear power station. Apart from that, the rest of us, in life, are always winging it. We've [00:22:00] always got imposter syndrome. And, so, if I look at the film and it's not speaking to me immediately, there's no point. Getting my head into it. 

[00:22:07] Col: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. It's broken. I can't think it will come. It's a little bit of, it's funny. My, my family coat of arms has got a tortoise on it. And I was thinking tortoise in the hair. It's like, it's like, we'll get there eventually [00:22:20] because I would just watch it and watch it. And I, the great thing to try and do if, if, if a film isn't speaking to you is to watch it, no matter what state it's in, watch the cut. 

[00:22:31] Col: With somebody who doesn't know anything about the subject and isn't, you know, and if it can be a non filmmaker even better. Um, but usually most of my buddies [00:22:40] are filmmakers. And the second you watch a film with somebody new, you see it completely differently. to how you and the director are watching it because you're suddenly you're it's amazing how focused it's like laser focus of clarity that comes when you're sat next to somebody watching something for the first time and you're like oh i [00:23:00] didn't explain that and also you see things there might be things that you were worried about not working And they're like, Oh no, I completely understood that. 

[00:23:08] Col: So that's the first thing I do. Joe Walker, the Oscar winning film editor, Joe Walker, always says, Show your film to as many people as possible. 

[00:23:15] Col: And that's true of docs and dramas. It's true of everything. I will try, you know, people come in, I'm [00:23:20] like, Sign an NDA and watch this. Right? To get a fresh pair of eyes. And my golden rule with that is, If I show the film to, let's say 10 people, and 10 people come up with 10 different things that were wrong, and each of those things that were wrong were for [00:23:40] one person only, feel free to completely ignore their note. 

[00:23:44] Col: Completely. If five people or more pick up on the same note, it felt a bit draggy here. I didn't understand who that character was. That is where you need to turn your, your focus to in the film. Because other things are working, things that you [00:24:00] might not even thought were working clearly are, because they haven't picked up on them. 

[00:24:03] Col: If you show it to that many people and they're not triggering a response of it not working. So that's, that's a good way to dig yourself out of the hole film's not working. That's very  

[00:24:15] Nigel: important advice. Also, Another thing that I've always thought is [00:24:20] listen to the problems that people describe, or the problems they're having with the film, but not necessarily their  

[00:24:25] Col: solutions. 

[00:24:26] Col: Never listen to their solution. Never listen to their solution. If your solution... Matches there's result, but it's often that this scene is slow. [00:24:40] Is this scene slow? This scene is slow. Do you know what's slow? It's the 10 minutes before we get to that scene. So by the time we get to this scene, they're bored. 

[00:24:50] Col: But if I shorten down the 10 minutes getting into that scene or even extract it from the film entirely and then show them that scene in the new context and you show it to fresh eyes, don't bother reshowing it to the same [00:25:00] person. That's that one viewer thing. It's gone. They are soiled eyes, soiled goods. 

[00:25:05] Col: Show it to new people. And then they will say, Oh yeah, no, that completely works. So that's  

[00:25:11] Nigel: true. I mean, my, my, my kind of discovery or one of the discoveries I made about something being slow is that it's not how [00:25:20] fast you cut it. It's the storytelling is slow. My great revelation was that I could, I could design a scene that had not very many cuts, right. 

[00:25:31] Nigel: Could be, you know, one or two camera moves, but within those shots, the storytelling was moving really, really fast. Right. You know, you have [00:25:40] one idea, leads to the next idea, leads to the next idea. And all it is, it could be just a static frame with stuff happening in it. Right. And, and it became a challenge to myself on, on our series, Fatal Attractions. 

[00:25:51] Nigel: When I was cutting something, I said, I want a style. I want it to feel like a thriller. I want it to have that sense of dread, that, that trepidation. But I don't [00:26:00] want it to be slow as in people have got to be engaged Because it's for a commercial channel and it's new to them So I ended up having a shot that was 45 seconds long But within it and it wasn't like an elaborate process shot that moved through loads of stuff It kept your mind moving.[00:26:20]  

[00:26:20] Nigel: It kept your mind working. So that is why um In my experience If you have an inexperienced exec  

[00:26:28] Col: Yes. Cut it faster. Oh,  

[00:26:30] Nigel: yeah. Take stuff out. Yes. Cut it down. And that's a big danger, isn't it? This is the problem. Completely. People forget how you fix a problem rather than [00:26:40] recognizing a problem.  

[00:26:41] We'll be back with Col in the moment, but I just wanted to jump in and remind you about the doc fix storytelling program. Which is the reason why I'm recording these interviews with great documentary storytellers. If you want to find out more about the program, which is here to help anyone, who's struggling to turn an idea. Into a great story.  

[00:26:59] You [00:27:00] can go to apply.thedocfix.com. I'll send you a case study where I go over. Exactly the process I use when working on stories. Such as the films I've made with coal, which include fatal attractions. Netflix series such as F1 Drive to Survive and script writing for some David Attenborough. Of course, if you have any questions at [00:27:20] all, I'd be glad to help. Now, back to Col, talking about adjusting the pacing in the edit. Of the indie sci-fi hit Monsters.  

[00:27:29] Col: When I cut this film called Monsters, and my first And that was in the improv film. And my first cut of that, and you could have watched the rushes for that film because it was all [00:27:40] improv. So every, everything they said was different. and the, the, the director was operating the camera himself and he would just go around them and film it kind of semi like a doc. 

[00:27:49] Col: but it meant you could watch that film and it'd be 120 hours long, which was how long the rushes were, right? Cause they were always saying different stuff. Obviously you can't release a 120 hour film. So my [00:28:00] first cut of that film was over three hours. And there were some times when in different locations they made the same plot points. 

[00:28:07] Col: So we just filmed them and they kind of repeat roughly the same information. And in that long cut I put both versions in so that the director I could actually choose which we preferred. Um, because he didn't watch that. He never watched the rushes. Uh, [00:28:20] it was just, again, it was left to me and I just waded my way through the rushes, to present that three hour cut. 

[00:28:26] Col: So then the film obviously got shot very quickly. Within a week, we cut it down to two hours, um, and then it's, it's months to then get it down from two hours to. What was the, in the end, 97 minutes. And then even after we [00:28:40] premiered it and had it at Cannes Film Festival, we took another seven minutes out of it before it got general cinema release. 

[00:28:45] Col: But the note from the producers was always make it shorter, make it shorter, make it shorter, because they always thought it was a bit slow and a bit boring. Um, and in the end, that's what got it down to the 97. I said, look, the [00:29:00] pace of this story, this is a slow story. It's one of those, right? I can show you a three hour movie like JFK that feels like a two hour movie and I can show you a short film that lasts 20 minutes and it feels like it's four hours. 

[00:29:18] Col: You're just bored ridged, right? [00:29:20] It's not to do, duration isn't to do with Pacing, right, isn't to do with how slow a film is. It's what's the world, is what the question here is, is do we think that this movie will find an audience that likes the kind of film that is told at the pace that we tell this story because you [00:29:40] can't please everybody. 

[00:29:41] Col: I know Hollywood loves to try and do that and tick every box. You can't do it. Very, very rarely. Can you do it? Certainly weren't going to do it with that film. It's like this is a film. that we've made and it's, or we can take another 20 minutes out, we can get out to 70 minutes, it will still feel slow. 

[00:29:58] Col: All we're doing now is taking out stuff that's [00:30:00] actually breaking the heart of this film and the, you know, the emotion of this film. So let's leave it at that. And it, that film, it's, it's, it's a Marmite film. You go and look it up on like Amazon or IMDB and it will say, One star review, I want my money back, that's 90 minutes of my life I'm never getting back. 

[00:30:19] Col: Five star [00:30:20] review, I've watched this film ten times, it's my favourite film ever. That's quite a good thing, Gareth and I always say, if we get that, we've made at least something. It's moved, it's either moved people to, they've hated it, or they've loved it. So, you know, and you take the people loved it and that movie was made on such a low budget. 

[00:30:37] Col: We weren't trying to get back hundreds of millions of [00:30:40] dollars, you know, so, uh, I stand by that, that I actually stand by the, I think the 93 minute cut was probably my favorite. The 97 probably was a bit too slow. The, the 90, the release one is a couple of little bits. I, when I look back at, I think preferred the pacing on the 93 minute version. 

[00:30:59] Gareth went on to [00:31:00] do Godzilla. And I, uh, Gareth talked about me going on to Godzilla. And unfortunately, I lost my wife just as when we finished fatality; as you know, I lost my wife of 27 years. And so I was like, I'm never going to cut again. 

[00:31:13] Col: So I just didn't think I'd be able to function under the high pressure cooker of an edit. Uh, so I didn't go back into the edit for [00:31:20] almost a year after my wife passed away. And then I felt confident enough when you asked me to do the Douglas Bader film that was a paid gig. 

[00:31:28] Col: Thank you. Now I could go back into an edit suite and function.  

[00:31:33] Nigel: And you brought with it, and I remember it was wonderful because you brought with it a whole range of skills. Because even though I'd worked with you before, it was [00:31:40] like, this had drama in it. It had a kind of full-scale drama. It had explosions. 

[00:31:44] Nigel: Oh, yeah. Going on, and, uh, That's great. Messerschmitts and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. And you were putting together... animatics and storyboards and animations in  

[00:31:55] Col: a way. I'd like to do all that stuff. And what was interesting was when we worked on on Air [00:32:00] Aces, cause obviously because it was very low budget, you'd have to shoot things very, uh, as low budget as you, as this is possible to do something. 

[00:32:08] Col: And there's a way of looking at those dailies and thinking, okay, well, we're going to show that to the producers and they're going to have to understand that in once the VFX have been done, this is gonna. But having worked with [00:32:20] Gareth and having worked, you know, on, on, um, the creator pre the forever project, and, having worked on monsters, I knew a lot to temp up VFX properly myself. 

[00:32:31] Col: So they weren't couldn't transmit my, my shots, but I could put it, I would grab other stuff from. You know, actual spitfires and stuff and comp it all [00:32:40] in and put your, put your actors inside the right environment. And I was comping reflections in windows and I was comping stuff out on the runway. Just that when the producers watched the film, they would, you know, I was rotating that, you know, like you'd film this pilot like this, hadn't you? 

[00:32:54] Col: And I was putting rotations on everything. So it felt like it was actually. It was like moving. [00:33:00] If  

[00:33:00] Nigel: you're listening to this, by the way, the podcast, he just had his hands very close to his face  

[00:33:04] Col: because it was a tight shot. And now  

[00:33:07] Nigel: the camera is swinging  

[00:33:08] Col: around. So that's what you do. And it was a way of selling. 

[00:33:12] Col: every job I've ever done has, improved my palette of colors that are on my board to do my next painting. [00:33:20] Let's, let's go back. I think some of the most useful thing that we've talked about, is like how you deal with problems. 

[00:33:24] Nigel: Because I loved how you talked about bringing people in. Because bringing someone in to look at your work is quite, um, challenging. It's very exposing,  

[00:33:35] Col: isn't it? Yeah. It was interesting, because the only time I've ever been allowed to do that was on [00:33:40] Star Wars. Because it's so clouded in secrecy, you can't show anybody anything. 

[00:33:45] Col: So the first time we ever watched that film, there was no test screenings, and the first time we ever saw that film with an audience... who hadn't worked on the film, was at the world premiere with 4, 000 people. And that, [00:34:00] that was kind of like, oh boy.  

[00:34:02] Nigel: Let's just not say it could have been better, but do you think it could have been better quicker if you'd been allowed to use that process? 

[00:34:10] Nigel: I know technically it's not possible because it is in secrecy.  

[00:34:13] Col: I think because It's so, it's so, you know, almost every single shot in that movie is a VFX shot in some way or [00:34:20] another. and you've got to feed the pipeline so I started on that film in the summer of 2014 and I finished it the day before the world premiere on December that, December 2016. 

[00:34:31] Col: And I had a whiteboard in, in the cutting rooms and I remember writing on the cutting board something, it was along the lines of, [00:34:40] 737 days to go in huge letters, huge, huge letters, right? Like a few feet high every day. I'd go in and I'd wipe off and I'd write up, you know, 730, you know, six days, 35, and then it got to 500 days to go. 

[00:34:56] Col: And I say to the crew. Remember when that said 737 [00:35:00] and how, how, how close that seems now, because it seems like it was yesterday. It was nearly a year ago and we've now only got 500 days left and we've still got to deliver all of these VFX shots. We've still, and I would keep doing it. And when it got down to a hundred days to go, it was like, Oh my God, God, are we going to make it? 

[00:35:17] Col: So, so I [00:35:20] think. Test screening would, I don't think, I think the process, it is such a, it's a different, it's a different beast working on that kind of film until you've done it. You don't understand the feeding of that machine. So in a you about running a marathon. It's not until you run a marathon, you experience the pain of it, right? What you need to do. And it's not till you've done [00:35:40] 737 days on a film that, you know, you understand it, what that  

[00:35:45] Nigel: process is. 

[00:35:46] What I'm interested in is good advice for directors. What editors would like their directors to do? 

[00:35:52] Nigel: If you were to give advice to documentary directors about what you would love to see. 

[00:35:57] Nigel: In the rushes above and beyond everything, [00:36:00] but just how they shoot, what they've given you. Is there a, is there a list of things that you could say this would make my job so much  

[00:36:06] Col: easier? Yes, there, there's a, there's a few things and then there's a, there's a theory which I'll expand on. So the few things, first of all, is the neutral cutaway. 

[00:36:15] Col: The neutral cutaway is not my hand gesturing in closeup [00:36:20] like I'm doing now in a wide shot. No, that is a useful cutaway. So get that as well. But a neutral cutaway. Is the objects on the shelf behind me where I'm not in shot because I can then cut that at to that at any point during the interview and I'm not tied into when my hand is up, right? 

[00:36:39] Col: Because a [00:36:40] neutral cutaway is something within the room within the locale. It's a clock on the wall. It's the view out the window of the clouds. It's things like that. The real get you out of jail card when you are completely stuffed on an edit, and you almost can't have too many of those that B roll stuff that you can shoot without even got the contribute contributor in the [00:37:00] room, obviously get the cutaways of the side of the glasses and the hands, things like that. 

[00:37:04] Col: But you're always limited as an editor as to when you can use them because the continuity has got to match to some degree. The other thing that's always good. And this is true of dramas as well, exactly the same, dramas and docs, no difference. And so the next thing is the shot where the camera is [00:37:20] not seeing my lips move, but seeing the back of my head so that I can cheat dialogue. 

[00:37:25] Col: And you never get enough of that. It's, it's frustrating how little of that shot you get because you, when you're trying to sub something down, it's such a useful way to compress dialogue when you can't see the person who's speaking. So that's, that's always, and in [00:37:40] drama, it's the French, the French call it the tunnel shot, which is you have two characters walking away from camera down a tunnel, down a corridor, or in shadow, even better. 

[00:37:48] Col: And then you can write a whole new dialogue scene to put back into the plot, all the things you lost because you cut 20 minutes of plot out, but you need to get a couple of few facts across and you're like, in the tunnel [00:38:00] shot. We can add in all this newly written, and on a, on a doc, you can do it with VO or whatever. 

[00:38:06] Col: So those, those are those things. The other thing that I think, and this is almost a producer thing as much as it is a director thing. I believe, I always preach this. This is my preach from the podium. I believe in the additive [00:38:20] process of filmmaking, not the subtractive process of filmmaking. The additive process of filmmaking is, you know, you're going to make, let's say a 90 minute film. 

[00:38:30] Col: Try and budget your film to go out and shoot an 80 to 90 minute long script. Don't go out and [00:38:40] shoot a three hour script. Right? Because then you've got enough money left in the budget to go and do pickups because you haven't overlong script that is the two hour one, right? Then you cut your film together and your film comes in and it's, it's 80 minutes, it's 90 minutes, it's around the sweet spot, but it's [00:39:00] got holes missing. 

[00:39:00] Col: It's got things you need to pick up on, but now you can be absolutely laser precision and you go back out and in a few days. You know, four days, five days, you can shoot more on screen usable footage than you will in four weeks of filming when you're filming something that's overly long.  

[00:39:18]  
 

[00:39:18] Nigel: Let me just pick up on what you're saying, [00:39:20] because it's really, really relevant to my experience as a documentary maker is everyone does pick. I mean, pickups are the most valuable. One of the most valuable tools you have as a filmmaker, and I think the weird thing about the filmmaking industry is you hold up, this auteur theory exists, you see the final [00:39:40] film, and you think, that is the idea that a brilliant director conceived of, had a, you know, built it, designed it, structured it, everything was shot, and then just made it, and there it is, okay? 

[00:39:52] Nigel: And, and, reshoots are absolutely magical, and they don't, they, they don't, make you feel any less of [00:40:00] a genius, because you haven't thought of it before. Your genius is that you know the process of making a film, so you give yourself a bit of room to fix it. Right. So I think there's a big, there's a weird issue about how directors are presented or how you read into this genius. 

[00:40:16] Nigel: The other thing I think is really interesting is how [00:40:20] simple stuff. Is incredibly important for ultimately making something that's very moving and artistic and powerful and crafted. So when you're saying shooting, what do you call them? Neutral cutaways? 

[00:40:34] Nigel: Neutral  

[00:40:34] Col: cutaways, yeah. It doesn't, it's nothing to do with the action that's going on [00:40:40] from the shot you're cutting from. So you're not tied in as an editor to having to match any kind of continuity. But it doesn't  

[00:40:47] Nigel: feel like you're making art. It was very interesting. When you're doing that, you're just pointing a camera at, uh, some books on a shelf and looking at your watch and say, there, we've got 15 seconds of that. 

[00:40:57] Nigel: That's when you need to list, that's when you need [00:41:00] discipline, that's when you think, our filmmaking as a director actually involves me having the discipline, listening to the DOP saying, if they want 15 seconds of that cutaway, don't keep looking at your watch and rush them on so they don't get a full 15 seconds or 11 seconds. 

[00:41:16] Nigel: The editor is going to be so grateful.  

[00:41:19] Nigel: Pointing [00:41:20] a camera at a tree for 15 seconds is going to save so much money down the  

[00:41:24] Col: line. Here's the thing, here's the thing in terms of your, I'm talking about things that are working on low budgets and all the rest of it is you have to say to yourself, um, okay, we're going to break for lunch today for an hour. 

[00:41:37] Col: Um, is there any validity in [00:41:40] saying to the assistant camera, where we go for lunch, can you go and shoot. You know, these neutral cutaways while we're having lunch and then you have lunch afterwards, you know, so that if you, if you're in danger of not getting the shots. the ideal thing you should do it with the whole crew, but it's a case of it's going to be a case of we're never going to get those shots [00:42:00] otherwise, you know, and we all know I have sat in on lines where the online editor has said that shot doesn't look the same. 

[00:42:10] And you say, yeah, I shot that cutaway on my iPhone while I was walking through the set. 

[00:42:15] Col: Uh, but we really need it. And it makes it into the film because it's better to have that shot in the film.[00:42:20] That it is to not have that shot. 

[00:42:22] Nigel: The simple stuff as an editor, the simple stuff that you can use in the edit is, is incredibly important to creating scenes. And sometimes as a director, it doesn't feel like you're doing much. But what you're actually doing is giving you the tools to tell the story, right? I used to do a [00:42:40] thing where on fatal attractions, there's two things I learned that I've carried with me always was when I was shooting a drama scene, I would roll before people got into the room, and then hold After people left the room and strangely there's something [00:43:00] about an empty room that carries weight You might not always use it But if this is a room in which a murder has happened Or if this is a room in which a murder is about to happen, right the value of that frame It's incredibly important. 

[00:43:15] Nigel: So that's one thing I really learned. It's, it's take a deep breath, [00:43:20] relax, and just go on for a little bit longer. It doesn't mean, it's the opposite of shooting and shooting and shooting. It's completely opposite of that. What it is, is you've decided what to shoot. Now, um, shoot either end of it.  

[00:43:35] Col: It's interesting because I also learned that on Fatal Attractions and I remember watching because I [00:43:40] was cutting an episode for a different director and, um, I watched your episode and then went back to the edit and said to her, do you know what? 

[00:43:49] Col: Let's steal those ideas. And we went back through the rushes and we found static shots before the clapboard had been marked. And then I put little creeps in on them. And we put scary music on and it [00:44:00] was transformative because, you know, suddenly. It was all about, it was about the corridor shot from The Shining. 

[00:44:05] Col: It was that, rather than, you know, a not maybe very well acted bit of recon or something that we'd actually originally had, because, and I've learned, and I, Nigel, I've stolen that trick from you, and I've used that probably on every film since. There are shots in Rogue One, I swear to [00:44:20] you, where there are extras of buildings that I had VFX mock up do for me, because they didn't exist, and I've done a little zoom in on them. 

[00:44:26] Col: , I learned from you, Nigel. I, the Nigel Levy technique, which is to steal a shot that's been used before the clapperboard or after the clapperboard. And then even if it's a static shot, and then I will put a camera creep on it. [00:44:40] And I've used that in films throughout my career ever since we did Fatal back in 2009. 

[00:44:46] Col: So I've used it in Rogue One. I've used them in Tetris. Tetris was full of shots where I put creeps in. totally out of uh, out of Fatal Attractions. It's, it's now one of my go to standard fixes in my armory of editing things [00:45:00] is take a wide shot and put a creep in on  

[00:45:02] Nigel: it.  
 

[00:45:03] Nigel: Well, you know, what's interesting is when I prep, again, you know, prep's interesting. We've got a few minutes to talk about this. Prep used to be, for me, a form of procrastination. Let's not say prep. 

[00:45:15] Nigel: developing skills. So I, I learned about camera blocking and camera [00:45:20] movement. As you say, to the absolute highest level, I went to the people who Peter Jackson employed to tell him how to block. Right. Get this person to teach me how to block. So I did so much work when I was talking to John Matheson. 

[00:45:33] Nigel: Uh, I'd say, okay, this gladiator, the scene where you had, um, Marcus Aurelius [00:45:40] and the gladiator in a tent and you move through four positions. Here is my blocking of it. I've broken this down. Is this anything like that? What you did? Wow. He said, yeah, yeah. And I've broken this down completely into what, how I think you might've shot it. 

[00:45:54] Nigel: And he told me how Ridley comes in and his arrangement with, so, you know, I did that. I guess to [00:46:00] give me the tools, to give me the self confidence. It's the same with storytelling, to give me the self confidence. ,  

[00:46:07] Nigel: So that when I wake up in the morning and think, oh my God, there's a producer who wants to make, I feel, shall I bother? Because I'm going to be able to do it. 

[00:46:16] Nigel: And you're encouraged to say, Yes, keep on the line. Because  

[00:46:19] Col: [00:46:20] it actually might be quite good. Every day that I invoice Marv, I think to myself, Did I earn that money today? Did I come up with an idea that was so wow that nobody else could think of it. And it's very rare that I believe that nobody else could. 

[00:46:33] Col: And occasionally I come up with things and I think, Oh, I earn't my money today.  

[00:46:38] Nigel: Yeah. Well, the thing that [00:46:40] calmed me down when I was lying there in bed at six in the morning worrying about this film that might actually get made, was that everything I do before the shoot will make sure the shoot is really good I know I can do stuff to prepare for the shoot. 

[00:46:55] Nigel: That means everyone else knows exactly what they're doing Right, right. I mean what [00:47:00] I intend what it's for, you know, god forbid if I fell over and broke my neck The shoot could carry on in a  

[00:47:07] Col: way, right? And that's the thing that says that, but it's also the thing whereby you've got to have that experience whereby, you know, the number of things that go wrong on any filming day, the number of things that can go wrong, [00:47:20] whereby you can take that plan and go. 

[00:47:22] Col: Okay, I've got three hours left. I'm not going to get through that because of this has happened. What do I need to get this essential to get in the can? What can I pick up with the an actor on a reverse somewhere else or a contributor somewhere else? How [00:47:40] can I fix this later? Or if can't give myself enough tools to be able to fix this later. 

[00:47:47] Col: And that's the skill is having the plan and the ability to adjust the plan on the  

[00:47:52] Nigel: hoof.  

[00:47:53] Col: I'm trying, I'm genuinely trying to, I'm, my head's flicking through all the filmmakers, all the [00:48:00] directors I've worked with. And in terms of the directors that I've worked with. I don't know a director who's more prepared on what their camera moves are going to be and what their blocking is going to be ever than, than you, right? 

[00:48:14] Col: I know other directors that I actually think do, do even more than you do, but I've never had the privilege of [00:48:20] working with those, right? , but well, I've seen what you do and your knowledge of camera blocking. I just, it frustrates me when I see, and I, you know, see directors who just shoot coverage. 

[00:48:33] Col: Because you know, it's like, I could direct like I mean?  

[00:48:38] Nigel: Honestly, I'll carry that with me that you've [00:48:40] said, I'm more prepared. And you know, and you use things that I've done because oh, that means I'm good enough. It feel, it still feels like a big distance.  

[00:48:49] Nigel: Going back to something else that you said, just to pick up, you said don't overshoot. So if you're trying to make a 90 minute film, try and shoot, you know, an 80 minute script or something. 

[00:48:58] Nigel: And what  

[00:48:58] Col: I mean by that in terms [00:49:00] of don't overshoot is, because what you've got to think about is. That every single frame of film that you shoot on set, somebody has got to ingest that into a computer and clone it multiple times and then they've got to get that into the editor's machine and then the editor's got to watch it.[00:49:20]  

[00:49:20] Col: So every single time you're doing that you're taking away the focus of your editor to the important stuff, okay? So if you're more disciplined in your shoot there is more time in your edit to focus on good things. The more your editor is wading through stuff that's not of any use, the more their time [00:49:40] is being wasted. 

[00:49:41] Nigel: In documentary terms. It's why I think preparation is so important and thinking deeply about your film because it, it. If you want to go and if you're making a documentary, you know what it's about, you know what it means to you've done that reflection, right? 

[00:49:53] Nigel: Even if it changes, as you say, unless you've done that really thoughtful work, [00:50:00] it's going to be very hard to shoot just the right amount of footage, you will naturally overshoot. So it's the end to do 

[00:50:12] Nigel: pickups. Yeah, it'd be incredibly thoughtful about Why your film matters to you because it guides the process you don't [00:50:20] overshoot not every interview is Hunting for the meaning of the film right you don't go into interviews and say tell me about this  

[00:50:27] Col: when I was a film student, I went to work at the B B C in current affairs for a week, and I was with a film editor called Laurie Choate and he would, they would shoot on film pros in the morning process in the [00:50:40] afternoon at lunchtime in the laboratory. 

[00:50:42] Col: That film was reversal X Chrome film. Uh, and he would edit the master, edit that film, and then that would go out that evening. On the BBC as part of their, and it wasn't news stories. It was like, it was current affairs. It was a more expanded [00:51:00] in depth sort of version and it was regional. And he was, he'd be doing that. And the director came in in the afternoon and had shot five rolls of film, five cans. 

[00:51:11] Col: It's 50 minutes of footage for this three minute piece that was going out that night. That night it had to be edited and commentary had to [00:51:20] be recorded and mixed, telecined on air for that evening at six o'clock. And Laurie turned to the director and said, which two cans do you want me to open? Because I'm not opening all five. 

[00:51:33] Col: And the director went, what? He goes, I don't have the time to even spool at high speed through 50 minutes of rushes and [00:51:40] make transmission tonight. Now that director never overshot ever again, because you've got to know how much edit time you've got. Now, if you're going out and you're shooting a doc and you're like, I'm going to cut this myself and I've got four years to cut it, go shoot what you want, right? 

[00:51:55] Col: But if you're working in a professional environment and you've got an editor for maybe six weeks. [00:52:00] Don't give them more footage than they could look at in six weeks and cut to a beautiful, highly crafted level.  

[00:52:06] Nigel: And I think that level of discipline, even if you are, because some first time documentary makers are shooting their own stuff, and are editing their own stuff, but that attitude is something you have to have, because the cost, the, the cost of [00:52:20] investment, and time and money of your own, and then maybe eventually getting in there, without that, that thoughtfulness, it's huge, isn't it? 

[00:52:27] Nigel: It could mean your film never gets made, you never make another film, you give up.  

[00:52:31] Col: And it also means again, you're much less likely to have the time and the money to go out and shoot the pickups that you really need.  

[00:52:39] Nigel: The discipline [00:52:40] of storytelling is something that I just feel is incredibly important. 

[00:52:42] Nigel: It's so fundamental to those choices that you make, that will save you in the long run. They inform everything. They inform, The researching the idea, the pitching the idea, the interviews, the, the edit, the post production, the marketing. Right. And yes, it's complicated, but you need to have [00:53:00] a system where you can just work out what, what on earth your film's about. 

[00:53:03] Nigel: Right. Otherwise you get a list, don't you? The horrific thing of like, I know your films have never been like that, but my early films, I think you just work with good filmmakers, right? So I think you've lived a charm life, but my early films, it's like that fear of a list. Oh God, I've [00:53:20] just got a load of really dramatic moments, but I'm not sure if it's saying anything. 

[00:53:25] Col: I mean, it's interesting because I look back now. I don't go back and watch my work, but I do go back and watch my work when people ask me about it. And recently, uh, somebody was talking about, you know, a couple of my earlier projects back from the [00:53:40] eighties and I dug them out to, to look at them and check the quality to then send onto them. 

[00:53:44] Col: And in watching them, I was thinking, Oh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't make that editorial choice now. I've been an editor at that point for a few years and now I've been editing for, you know, 41 years. And so there are different things that I would do. And then I was thinking, yeah, but you've got to remember [00:54:00] you cut that film on film, right? 

[00:54:04] Col: So if you changed your mind, you were unjoining the sellotape, you were getting the joiner out, you were re splicing and you were getting the sellotape out and joining it back together. And you weren't able to keep that pre, that version of now gone, you just destroyed it. It's not like on an Avid where you'd have, you can have as many [00:54:20] infinite number of cuts of the film as you want and go, do you know what? 

[00:54:22] Col: I preferred it the way I had it a week ago. Click on bin. It's instantly there. You would have to unpick the entire film and go re-Sellotape it. How did I have it a week ago? You know, so I was thinking, A, you cut it on film and B, you cut that entire film in four weeks or six [00:54:40] weeks, whatever it was that I had. 

[00:54:41] Col: It's not like now when I might have years on a film, right? And it's on an Avid with every previous version I've ever done.  

[00:54:50] Nigel: What would you say in terms of advice? You know, we've talked about what you would like to get from a director you're working with. 

[00:54:56] Nigel: There are people who are listening to this who I know who are just, [00:55:00] they're self taught, they've made some films maybe, they're just not quite as great as they know they could be. any kind of advice that you'd give them? as, as documentary makers, because that's what they are. 

[00:55:11] Nigel: They're making stories about, about real life. Just anything at all that you think would be, that you'd like them to know.  

[00:55:19] Col: I would [00:55:20] say, uh, this is what's interesting, the difference between British documentary filmmakers and American documentary film editors is working in television, and American documentary film editors working in cinema. 

[00:55:31] Col: There is a much bigger tradition in America of feature cinema-released documentaries than there is in the UK. The [00:55:40] reason is because in the UK, we have such a high standard of documentaries that are broadcast on television, particularly on what is effectively free television, like the BBC and ITV, Channel 4, that people wouldn't really want to spend 20 to go and sit in a cinema to watch a documentary. 

[00:55:59] Col: The reason [00:56:00] why they do it in America is because most American television documentaries are wall-to-wall music and wall-to-wall recap. of what you've just seen in the last five minutes and what you're about to see in the next five minutes. Their feature documentaries don't do that. Their feature documentaries are scored more [00:56:20] sparingly and they don't do the recap nonsense of, let's tell you at the beginning of this film what this film is about. 

[00:56:26] Col: They are usually voyages of discovery. We're going to start on this film because they figure you've gone to the cinema, you've paid your money, you're going to sit and you're going to watch the doc. And that is why you get a very high standard of American cinema documentaries. And I would say if you were a documentary [00:56:40] filmmaker, don't use music all the time. 

[00:56:42] Col: It cheapens what people are saying, and it lessens the emotional impact when you do want one. Because it's the old adage, if everything is loud. Nothing is. The best sound mix is one where something goes incredibly quiet [00:57:00] right before the loudest piece of the film happens, the explosion happens, you know, the music comes in, whatever it's going to be, the car crash, dip those sounds down, you know, before you have the impact, otherwise everything's a dial of six and nothing ever seems loud. 

[00:57:15] Col: Same thing with the music. Music is playing all the time. [00:57:20] It doesn't have the emotional so. impact that it does when it's used more sparingly.  

[00:57:25] Nigel: Col, thank you very much indeed. It's just been fantastic to talk to you.  

[00:57:29] Col: Pleasure, always. 

[00:57:31] Col: It's just great to be able to promote the craft of film editing, which is highly underrated, uh, in the [00:57:40] industry and as a tool by filmmakers. And so anything we can do to promote that further, I'm always happy to do so.  

[00:57:50] I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Col and found it useful. If you're interested in working with me at The DocFix all the links you need are in the notes below.[00:58:00] There's a case study you could sign up for at apply.thedocfix.com that goes into some detail on how the system has been used. In some of the TV shows and documentaries I've been involved with. There's a lot of information now you'll find useful. And if you want to get in touch, you can send me an email to Nigel at the doc. fix.com. And I'd be happy to [00:58:20] hear from you.  

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