Sculpting Documentary Stories Through The Score with composer Birger Clausen

Birger Clausen, the composer, is one of my closest collaborators, most recently on the two-time Emmy nominated (including for music and sound) and RTS winning 9/11: Life Under Attack.

In this episode we talk about many things - the relationship with the composer, mood and storytelling, the use of specific effects and the avoidance of cliche, trends in the industry and even the impact of Artificial Intelligence.

But, in this episode, it struck me that a key aspect was understanding the reality of giving up creative control. As a director, not a composer, you are relying on someone else's taste and texture. And in many ways, giving too much advice can be counterproductive. 

In this podcast, I tried to understand the composer's mind - how he or she thinks. Of course, I added a fair amount of music so you can hear the impact of various styles and approaches and the solutions composers and directors reach for their soundtracks.

The power of music to shape film narratives is at the heart of our discussion, and we explore the impact of simple motifs and the collaborative dance between director and composer. Hear how Birger, along with greats like Oscar-winner Volker Bertelmann in 'All Quiet on the Western Front', use music to convey emotions and cultural themes and enhance storytelling. 

We dissect the use of musical themes, the versatility of instruments, and even how a historical harmonium can encapsulate the brutality of war. The discussion shifts to the intricacies of genre-specific composing, highlighting the balance between innovation and meeting genre expectations.

You might hear me searching to understand a form I love - music - but one I have never been inside of; the act of music creation and its power to invoke an emotion. 

Of course,  feel free to get in contact with me if you'd like me to elaborate or be clearer about what I'm searching for.

Are you interested in joining the DocFix program and working with Nigel?

Get started with our complimentary case study that shows you how the method is used in high-profile documentaries and to see if you are a good fit for what we do and how we work.

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Incidental music composed by Birger Clausen

Transcript

Birger Clausen interview 
 

[00:00:00] Hi, I'm Nigel Levy, and this is the DocFix Documentary Storytelling Podcast. 

This episode comes with music, much of it, including what you're hearing now from the subject of this conversation, the award-winning documentary and drama film composer Birger Clausen. 

Birger and I've worked together on many films, and I wanted to use this conversation to discuss his process in detail, including how he likes to work with directors and how he sees the process from his perspective. It was particularly revealing for me to understand how composers think; music is a powerful tool in film but also very subjective. So, in many ways, the relationship between composer and director is about trust. 

[00:00:39] It's about handing over control and having a shared taste. After our conversation, I understood much better how the relationship with a collaborator such as a composer feeds into the storytelling process. 

Of course. Please do subscribe if you want to know when the next episode will emerge. And if you want to find out more about me and how I work with people on their [00:01:00] documentary, storytelling skills at the doc fix. 

You can go to apply.thedocfix.com. That's apply.the docfix.com. And, of course, there are details in the show notes at the end of this podcast. And now, here's my conversation with the composer, Birger Clausen. 

[00:00:39] Handing over [00:00:40] control. Of having a shared taste. After our conversation, I understood much better. How these aspects, including the relationship with the collaborator feed into the storytelling process. Of course. Please do subscribe.  

[00:00:53] If you want to know when the next episode is going to emerge. And if you want to find out more about me and how I work with people on their [00:01:00] documentary, storytelling skills at the doc fix. You can go to apply.thedocfix.com. That's apply.the docfix.com. And, of course, there are details in the show notes at the end of this podcast. And now, here's my conversation with the composer, Birger Clausen.  

[00:01:18] Nigel: Birger, thanks so much [00:01:20] for being part of this podcast. What I wanna do is to begin, I think with how you got into composing for documentary and what was your ambition when you started out? How did you end up with this aspect to your musical career? 

[00:01:35] Birger: Yeah, it's great to be here. Thank you for having me. At the National [00:01:40] Film Television School where I studied music we were already collaborating on student documentaries. So that was my first step into working for documentaries. And then actually my first proper composing job, I. 

[00:01:56] Birger: Was actually a documentary, BBC documentary about a [00:02:00] school shooting in the US. And luckily I, got the job because one of my tutors from the National Film of Television School, she couldn't do the composing job, and he recommended me. And so I, I had my first proper composing job, so to say. That was [00:02:20] back, in 2007. 

[00:02:21] Nigel: As a composer. How did you begin to tackle the process of helping the storytelling with that music? I actually remember it very well because it was part of, I think, the show reel of music that I heard from you. 

[00:02:34] Nigel: What decisions did you make about the palette that you were going to use?  

[00:02:39] Birger: [00:02:40] It was, for me, it was very important first, of course to talk to the director. That's for me the, first step in, in know, making decisions. 

[00:02:51] And then he brought me in, I think also pretty early into the project so I could experiment with, [00:03:00] textures. 

[00:03:02] Birger: For me it was quite important to, to try to get into the shooter's head, and to, not make him totally like monster inhumane, but to, to somehow get into his, mind.[00:03:20]  

[00:03:20] And so that's fascinating. So right from the beginning you were trying to get to create the subjective experience of the main character. 

[00:03:33] Now doing that, It does depend on how the [00:03:40] film is made as well, doesn't it? The film maker has got to make a choice of trying to be in the head of the main character, but say you got that direction, how does that affect the choices you made? What fascinates me about music is it is a very it's an abstract medium. 

[00:03:58] Nigel: You can't directly [00:04:00] connect the sound of a piece with, language or narrative. It doesn't directly connect, but clearly there is a connection. So what choices do you make in order to feel as though you are inside the head of character? How does that affect your musical, your harmonic choices, your palette of instruments and so on? 

[00:04:19] [00:04:20] In that case there was a lot of talk about the, background of that shooter that, that, person So I got a little bit more, more information through all this, all these scenes about his, childhood and his, parents. And that definitely informed some of the [00:04:40] textual choices. 

[00:04:41] Birger: So I was trying to, avoid being too cold and icy. Cause I think that would've stayed a little bit too much in the on the outside of the, main character. So I, tried to find some sort of subtle, textures. [00:05:00] Like for example, boat guitar textures that have a little bit more warmth to them, but still have, a certain eeriness. 

[00:05:11] Birger: And that was definitely one of the main textural  

[00:05:16] Nigel: choices.  

[00:05:18] Birger: Every composer has [00:05:20] this personal background, I would say, and to His taste his, personal story in terms of musical upbringing I always have more like a tendency to go for the most subtle choices. And I really also in a certain way enjoyed really working on [00:05:40] that, even if that sounds a bit strange working on such a horrific  

[00:05:44] Nigel: subject. 

[00:05:45] Nigel: Not at all. I think there's a it's a powerful subject. It's a story that needs telling. I remember because what's interesting to me is, When I had to choose a composer, because we first came across each other on Fatal attractions, which was a series I made a number of years ago, [00:06:00] which was a kind of psychological horror series. 

[00:06:04] Nigel: Often you are in a hurry. You go to someone you know, you don't give yourself the time to find the absolute right one. 

[00:06:12] Nigel: And with you on my project, I listened to 30 or 40 composers very carefully and whittled it down. And then I thought, no, [00:06:20] this makes absolute sense to use you. And it did work incredibly well, but, so what happened clearly was your subtlety and nuance and the instrumentation that you chose. Absolutely matched what we were trying to do. 

[00:06:36] Nigel: And during this podcast, I will be playing and, have [00:06:40] played examples of your music and I hope people can hear that kind of, that yearning feeling, that suspense that that quality to what you've done.  

[00:06:53] Nigel: The thing that I find frustrating about music is that when there are a number of [00:07:00] people involved in the project, everyone's experience in music is unique. And a little bit arbitrary. So you can just have someone saying, I don't like that. And it just doesn't seem to be based necessarily on anything other than, oh, they've just never liked that kind of music. 

[00:07:16] Nigel: What's your reaction when that happens? 

[00:07:19] Birger: It [00:07:20] can be really frustrating. I remember a few years ago I was working on a German TV drama and the director, the pro producer and me we, were all trying to go for a cello theme and was somebody like an overseer from the[00:07:40] broadcaster who, really said, no, I don't like cello. Just like that. 

[00:07:48] Birger: And she was always pushing against having. Strings in the score, but especially the cello. And it was quite hard[00:08:00] to totally stay away from it just because we really thought that was would, would've been working so well. But we had to find different ways to work around that. 

[00:08:12] Birger: And we ended up in the end with satisfying score. But I think, but yeah it was [00:08:20] frustrating because there was no real reason other than a very individual taste or experience that that we had to deal  

[00:08:29] Nigel: with. I think that's an important thing for people, to remember when they're working in documentary. 

[00:08:33] Nigel: If they haven't made many documentaries in the real world, you get these very arbitrary [00:08:40] decisions about what's good and what isn't. That's the It's not the hardest thing to deal with. It's a reality. Like you say, you have to find a way of coping with it. I think for me, when that happens to me you, you just try and get a, the clearest explanation possible [00:09:00] for why. 

[00:09:01] Nigel: So if you can find out the why, you might be able to get to the bottom of it and find a find a logical reason or at least what their logic is, and then you can use that and produce something that you feel happy with and they feel happy with. But it's amazing the amount of arbitrary choices. 

[00:09:19] Nigel: I actually think the truth [00:09:20] also in, in filmmaking is the people you are working with are under a lot of pressure themselves, so you don't know what they've been told. It could be that there's been a focus group who knows on the biggest channels. I wouldn't be surprised if the analytics in the Netflix, algorithms said [00:09:40] cellos. 

[00:09:42] Nigel: Reduce engagement. Who knows? So that would be, a possibility anyway, but you have to be able to deal with that almost arbitrary sense of what's right and what's wrong. 

[00:09:55] Nigel: So let's talk about something else here, because [00:10:00] you mentioned all quiet on the Western front as a piece of music. You've given us a sample of it, so we will be playing it for people. So let's have a listen to it.  

[00:10:11] Nigel: [00:10:20] What, is it about that piece of music that you find so interesting? What, why did you choose to bring that along and talk about it? [00:10:40] The main feature of that piece of music is actually the, yeah. The main theme, which consists of Three node motive played on an old harmonium [00:11:00] and the composer Forker Bertman, who also won the Oscar for the best original score. 

[00:11:08] Birger: This year he actually took the harmonium, his great grandmother, who also lived in the time [00:11:20] that the story actually takes place. And yeah, just played on that instrument and, he restored it and he really felt that it embodied this brutality of the war so perfectly. 

[00:11:36] Birger: The harmonium has this very deep, almost [00:11:40] brutal sound to it. And he, just perfectly. Perfectly bodied this brutality of the war with the three node motive, which is very simple, but played on an instrument which is so fitting that I think it's a great example for how [00:12:00] a composer can define a really important element of the story with a simple  

[00:12:06] Nigel: motive. 

[00:12:07] Nigel: That description is, incredibly vivid. Do you think it's that piece of music up against the pictures, obviously the music is meant to work with the [00:12:20] pictures, but you described something about the brutality of war and the sound of a harmonium. How can the sound of the harmonium describe something so specific? 

[00:12:31] Birger: Obviously it becomes more specific together with the images and with the story. But already when you[00:12:40] when you listen to this three node motive and the, texture of the harmonium, which is in, yeah, I don't know better word, but in, in that combination of elements really sounds brutal. 

[00:12:54] Birger: That's a very, the very, very deep base [00:13:00] frequencies. It has a certain harshness to it in a certain width and, depth to the body of the harmonium. I think that it also on its own has a lot of power already. Obviously then you, have to choose the right nodes as well and the right, right harmonic. 

[00:13:19] Birger: [00:13:20] Background in which you embed this, motive. So you would obviously choose like a minor harmony as a background for that. And that creates this, the background for the instrument to, to shine and to, give that strong impact.  

[00:13:39] Nigel: It's interesting you [00:13:40] say minor harmony, because I'm probably quite dangerous because I have a little knowledge of music. 

[00:13:44] Nigel: So it might be the case that I might suggest major or minor or suspensions or things and then I'm outta my depth. But the question is whether it's at all helpful if the director understands music as [00:14:00] music or is your job an interpretation of whatever they say to try and create the sound that's in their head? 

[00:14:07] Birger: It can help, I think. Yes, because as, you said, the music is such a personal and. Issue. It is very hard to define, and in that sense, it can help if a [00:14:20] director can even more precisely say what he wants and what he thinks he needs. But it's not totally necessary. I think we are learning as composers to Yeah. 

[00:14:33] Birger: To be also interpreters of what the directors want and, what what [00:14:40] they say. Yeah. And trying to translate it into our musical language, so to  

[00:14:45] Nigel: say.  
 

[00:14:46] Nigel: Something that occurred to me when you were talking about the sound of the harmonium there's a, narrative technique called internal and external imagery, which it just struck me because what that means is in [00:15:00] terms of the imagery used in a film, you can use external imagery, which is using an image that is well known to the culture outside of the film. 

[00:15:09] Nigel: So like a crucifix or a a noose for hanging or something that just has obvious power and resonance. And then there's imagery that develops through the film, is [00:15:20] introduced into the film. So the harmonium that you're talking about, you could introduce, the harmonium as a piece of music that will mean nothing in particular at first. 

[00:15:31] Nigel: And then you associate, you begin to slowly associate that sound with a certain mood or [00:15:40] tone or activity that has a bit of threat to it, and then slowly it builds within the piece. So as it grow over time, when you hear that sound, you are now making an association with it that didn't exist before the film started, but it exists as part of the story that you are telling. 

[00:15:57] Nigel: Do you. Literally think like [00:16:00] that because I would I think try and use that kind of language to describe what I wanted to do when I have time. Do you think in those terms? How do you approach it as a progressive piece of work, themes that grow and develop that change their [00:16:20] meaning over time, that you return to individual themes? 

[00:16:23] Nigel: How do you tackle that aspect of it? Because it's a sequential art, isn't it, filmmaking. What changes do you make as the story evolves?  

[00:16:33] Birger: I think very important is to have a theme that lends itself to, variation, to have enough [00:16:40] scope to take it apart, to expand it to maybe have different shades of harmonic color around it so, it has a certain versatility.. 

[00:16:53] Birger: So, really is important to find a, motive or a theme that, that has [00:17:00] a bit of a . Depth to that, that you can really provide in, a, in various ways. And combine it and work with it so that you recover a lot of different aspects in the story, in the narrative.  

[00:17:17] Nigel: So is that what you do when, you are looking [00:17:20] later at a piece, you're saying you take this film theme, you're gonna develop it in some way. 

[00:17:24] Nigel: So make it bigger or more powerful or more threatening, or however you can rearrange the theme.  

[00:17:31] Birger: Yes, absolutely. And that's such a fas fascinating aspect. Especially putting a theme into different, [00:17:40] harmonic context, for example that, it really can, shine in totally different ways and in a totally different moods. 

[00:17:49] Birger: And and also expanding it changing the instrumentation, for example. Playing the, same motive or theme with, [00:18:00] very different instrumental colors or also expanding it in, size. Say you're working with, the same theme, but have it in Different ensemble sizes or just with a solo instrument to, to have a very intimate moment maybe. 

[00:18:14] Nigel: I will be playing various bits of your music and also linking to it at the bottom of the podcast so people can listen to themselves.  

[00:18:19] Nigel: [00:18:20] But what was interesting to me with our with Fatal Attractions, there was what you used in the horn theme, 

[00:18:29] Nigel: a lot of it set in America. I dunno whether you felt this when you were designing it the horns as they play, feel very. 

[00:18:37] Nigel: Patriotic in a sense[00:18:40] very evocative of what it means to be from this part of the world. A sense of formality and tragedy and something like that. It just really worked with these figures who were tragic. I guess we're trying to do the right thing, but it just,[00:19:00] it failed for them. 

[00:19:02] Nigel: When you have a funeral, a military funeral, and you know there's a tragedy, there's loyalty, there's all these things going on. That sadness just worked incredibly well for me. [00:19:20] thank you for that. I hope people enjoy listening to it when they listen to it. And certainly the commissioners were very happy with it too.  

[00:19:30] We'll be back with Birger in a moment, but I just wanted to jump in and remind you about the doc fix storytelling program, which is the reason why I'm recording these interviews with [00:19:40] people in the industry behind great documentary stories. If you want to find out more about the program, which is there to help anyone who's struggling to turn an idea into a great story. You can go to apply dot the doc, fix.com. 

[00:19:53] I'll send you a case study where I go over. Exactly the process I use when working on stories, such as the [00:20:00] films I made with Berger, which includes Fatal Attractions and the Emmy nominated 9/11 film as well as other series, such as Netflix’s Formula One: Drive to Survive and many more. Of course, if you have any questions at all, I'd be glad to help. And now back to Birger and his rescoring of a scene in the Pixar classic, The Incredibles.[00:20:20]  

[00:20:21] Nigel: There's something else I know that you did. It was after you, you graduated from the National Film and TV school. You are part of a very small group of people chosen to work in la. In the big sound stage. That's right. Isn't it? One of the sound stages in a Yes.  

[00:20:35] Nigel: And you were asked to re-score a scene from The Incredibles. [00:20:40] Now the Incredibles is one of my all time favorite films. But it has a huge range of what was it? It was Superhero James Bond. [00:21:00] You had a full orchestra to work with, is that right?  

[00:21:03] Birger: That's right, yeah. 

[00:21:04] Birger: We had a 60 piece orchestra to work with, yes.  

[00:21:07] Nigel: Okay. 
 

[00:21:07] Nigel: What was the experience like? Twofold of working with a huge orchestra in a soundstage in LA and having to compose something different for [00:21:20] something so iconic. 

[00:21:22] Birger: Actually was really intimidating and exciting at the same time, I must say. Working with such top-notch musicians, but also conducting them and being in front of them and having to, conduct them was quite intimidating. But at the same [00:21:40] time I must say I didn't feel so intimidated by the job itself. 

[00:21:46] Birger: I really felt excited to, to score that scene and to, play with the orchestra colors. To have the opportunity to work with the 60 piece orchestra was, something really new for me at that stage. So we had about 10 days [00:22:00] to, to score that scene and to write the score for the musicians. 

[00:22:06] Birger: It was an incredible experience, really. It was so amazing to see how those musicians played, the music without really practicing. 

[00:22:16] Birger: Just prima vista, . Just on the first look on the [00:22:20] score, they just played it. So expressively was just really an amazing experience, I'd say.  

[00:22:26] Nigel: Wonderful. So a few more things I'm interested in when you're trying to create a, kind of like a genre in your film, say like a thriller, how much do you go to cliche or how [00:22:40] aware are you of the cliches of that genre of music? 

[00:22:44] Nigel: So if you're doing a horror piece, how much of you is saying, if I had to invent this myself and create this mood and tone and fear, how much is it is, coming from you and how much is saying [00:23:00] this is how it's been done in the history of film music, and that's what the audience expects.  

[00:23:06] Birger: Ah, that's so difficult to say because we are so influenced by everything that we've listened to by the cliches, just especially in the horror genre. 

[00:23:18] Birger: There's, so many [00:23:20] musical cliches as well. You, have to take that into account, but also try to find your own way to to, express that style and to work with that sort of narrative. And I would always really try to create something that I enjoy listening to myself. 

[00:23:38] Birger: I think that's the most [00:23:40] important thing really that, you are really have, a feeling of satisfaction when you listen to a piece of music. And. I think as a composer, you feel when you're faking it or when, you're not yourself. And so, you got a certain sensitivity for, that. 

[00:23:57] Birger: And, so the, best way I think to [00:24:00] approach it is, to try to write something that you, despite all the cliches and despite all the history of the genre, to create something that you like yourself, you just like listening to  

[00:24:11] Nigel: it's interesting to me because as, I develop as a film director, my very first feeling is if I make anything that feels at all, like the [00:24:20] thing, I want it to feel, like if it actually is scary and I've put together a sequence of shots and it works with me music, I'm thrilled beyond belief. 

[00:24:28] Nigel: Because filmmaking is so complex, it can be so complex and so nuanced, and there's so many elements that if it at all gets close, To a certain level of quality. [00:24:40] I'm often really surprised and relieved. So I'm not even at the stage of saying, can we reinvent it? It's like it's enough that people jump and are shocked at this point and they felt absorbed. 

[00:24:52] Nigel: So maybe saying going beyond that would be where the really sophisticated level of nuanced filmmaking, whether [00:25:00] it's whether you are allowed to do that by the director, whether they can keep pushing and saying, no, let's take it further. Let's subvert the cliche. You have to be able to understand it first to be able to subvert it. 

[00:25:09] Nigel: And I think in that series I made with you, it was, I was learning to create that genre. Let alone subvert the genre. It was enough that [00:25:20] we were working within it successfully. And I think just from on my point, we were combining natural history and psychological thriller if we could make that work. 

[00:25:30] Nigel: It did very well. The series did very went on for. Three years. I think you did a lot of work outta that series. I remember you. Yes, It was [00:25:40] 23, 24. A huge amount of episodes, and we didn't just try and constantly reuse. You were composing and we now you didn't use anyone else. You were composing the whole every season, weren't you? 

[00:25:52] Nigel: Absolutely.  

[00:25:53] Birger: Yes. That was good.  

[00:25:54] Birger: I wish I had a, had a, an assistant, but 

[00:25:57] Nigel: it wasn't a big budget, but No, the [00:26:00] sounds are beautiful. I made another note of something I want to talk about, and funny enough, I got confused by it because we've talked about cliche. I wrote down drones. The reason it made me laugh is drones as in flight, small flying aircraft, that, that begin every Netflix documentary or a cliche, which happened [00:26:20] meaninglessly, but also droning noises. 

[00:26:24] Nigel: It, seems almost too easy to use a drone noise over something. It's just a sound. How do you feel about that? About using things that are, I'm [00:26:40] assuming that they're quite easy to create a drone. 

[00:26:43] Nigel: Do you feel that's as satisfying as really composing with thematic arguments and setting themes and motifs? 

[00:26:52] Birger: I would say it's deceptively simple and drone can also be very [00:27:00] very complex in itself. 

[00:27:01] Birger: There's lots of drones that have movement in them, or very subtle movement, and so they can be really, effective and even complex to a certain degree. Even though they, sound maybe very simple because it's maybe just a single note if you take it from [00:27:20] musical aspects, musical theory aspect. 

[00:27:22] Birger: But within that, note there can be lots of subtle movements and, shades and textural things going on that can make a drone really extremely effective. And drones. [00:27:40] Are really very effective often. I usually don't use just the drone for, something. I, do to have a little bit more musical meat, so to say, to play with, but it's astonishing sometimes really how effective drones can be.[00:28:00]  

[00:28:00] Birger: Okay.  

[00:28:00] Nigel: I think you put me in my place, which is absolutely the reason I'm talking to a professional very, politely. Drones are far more sophisticated than I could see. That's absolutely fair enough.  

[00:28:09] Nigel: Just because, it sounds copyable, doesn't mean you get to the heart of what is actually going on. In terms of the trends in music what have [00:28:20] you, noticed? Have you noticed people looking for a particular kind of sound? 

[00:28:25] Birger: What I've noticed recently is that there have been some incredibly interesting skills working with voices, actually with the human voice in, various ways manipulating the human voice in [00:28:40] interesting ways and working with choir. 

[00:28:42] Birger: And yeah, that has, has really been quite fascinating. There. There has been a film on Netflix called the Wonder with music by a British composer, Matthew Herbert, I think for example, or another film called Men, which, which had also some British [00:29:00] composers on that. And they were all working in very effective ways with Voices, vocals, and the same goes, for example, for series like yellow Jackets great drama series. I think on Showtime, which was also really very effectively using vocals. And I think this is, [00:29:20] there's a little trend that I really enjoyed listening to and, watching. At the  

[00:29:24] Nigel: same time. 

[00:29:26] Nigel: It always fascinates me when there's two ways of doing things. You create the right music for the piece of drama that you are trying to, or the moment that you're trying to dramatize. 

[00:29:36] Nigel: So you are in effect saying, this is [00:29:40] something hor horrific. This is something scary. So let's make scary music. And you start looking at what do horror films have? Or you can go completely the opposite way and have something completely inappropriate. And by its very inappropriateness. It makes you look afresh at the content. 

[00:29:58] Nigel: Do you use that? Do [00:30:00] you force yourself to do the opposite of what you would normally do? I'm not sure I've asked anyone to do that. I tried it once. I'm just gonna tell a bit of my own story because I wasn't strong enough or didn't have enough authority in the industry when I tried this myself because I made a documentary about it was for Horizon for the bbc and it was about [00:30:20] Europeans making their way to North America across the edge of the ice flow that existed. So proper aerial shots, cgs of people 14,000 years ago dressed in seal skins on boats going along the edge of the ice flow. 

[00:30:33] Nigel: Very evocative imagery. And I wanted to use somewhere sung by Tom Waites.[00:30:40] It is, it's wrong, but Right. You've got the sound of Tom Wait's voice singing somewhere, west Side Story. Bernstein and Sunheim.[00:31:00] And I used it and I thought that is fantastic.  

[00:31:08] It just seems unusual and strange, evocative. And then the BBC came in and said, no, because this is a serious program. 

[00:31:17] [00:31:20] we replaced it with something serious. And everyone was happy because it felt as though it matched it, but it didn't, it wasn't surprising. It wasn't saying anything other than what you would expect it to say. My question to you, and sorry for talking so much, is [00:31:40] how do you do the unexpected? 

[00:31:43] Nigel: How do you force yourself not to do the right thing with the piece of music, but sometimes try the non-obvious thing?  

[00:31:52] Birger: I don't really have to force myself too much to do that because I'm really fascinated by [00:32:00] know, like Stanley Kubrick choices, for example for, music scores, which are also a little bit like, like Tarantino not, something you would expect sometimes in certain certain scenes. 

[00:32:14] Birger: And I always think it's great if film music adds something to, [00:32:20] to the images and not just replicates what's already in, in the images or in the scene. It's a little bit, my, my instinct, my natural instinct or my intuition to, go into that area. It's obviously not always possible because the, as you already mentioned we are not al always in [00:32:40] the right circumstances. 

[00:32:42] Birger: We're not always working with o open-minded enough people. But I would really love to go for it whenever I have the chance. Also working on, some small art house feature films, for example where, there's a lot of open-mindedness and, you're encouraged to go [00:33:00] in, in interesting ways musically. 

[00:33:02] Birger: But I can't really, you tell you this say. Method for that, or that's, I don't think there's really blueprint  

[00:33:11] Nigel: for that. 

[00:33:12] Nigel: It's funny because I think and then what you find then is anachronistic music choices become a cliche after a [00:33:20] while. I think a Knight's Tale had a David Bowie track that they danced to in a dance sequence whenever a Knight's Tale 14th century. 

[00:33:31] Nigel: And there was nothing cliched about that. It was actually quite exciting. But you've seen so many times now that something that was novel and exciting just looks [00:33:40] like a cliche. The thing that frustrates me, I think is that I know the audience would accept far, more than people give them credit for, that they would enjoy it. 

[00:33:52] Nigel: If you did those weird and unusual and strange and unexpected things why wouldn't they? An audience goes to see a [00:34:00] drama and you're not giving the audience the credit that in a drama the audience will see really weird stuff happen and the music could do anything they want. 

[00:34:10] Nigel: And in documentaries, sometimes people say it's a Netflix cliche thing of someone did a very, good parody of a [00:34:20] a, net documentary about toast. And it's something like, you can make a Netflix documentary about anything nowadays. I dunno whether you saw it, but it began with a drone shot, funnily enough, and then it had thuds and accents and it's a crime. 

[00:34:37] Nigel: So you have the. And then the verb would just [00:34:40] carry on and you'd have squeaky noises. And basically it was every cliche of every crime show would be in this thing. And you go, oh, look, that's a Netflix true crime thing about someone's toast in the morning being stolen.  

[00:34:52] Nigel: My point is, do you find yourself being asked to do, saying, yes, that's all very well Berg, and that's beautiful, but can we [00:35:00] have a really good stab like this that we can use in the dub and we'll put it where we think it needs to go. 

[00:35:08] Nigel: Just to add some oomph so the audience know what's going on. You don't have to name projects 

[00:35:14] I'm I'm employed by the director and the producer. And to, you can maybe try to [00:35:20] argue about it and offer an alternative to it, but in the end, I have to go obviously with what the director or the producer sometimes tells me. 

[00:35:30] Nigel: I'm saying have you looked at stuff back and think, what have they done with my music in the dub? They've moved it all over the place. They've stuck a drone everywhere. So you didn't look as though you composed it to [00:35:40] picture. They just used your sounds.  

[00:35:41] Birger: Yes, There, there were definitely instances where I was really putting lots of effort to, to work to that scene. 

[00:35:49] Birger: And, in the end I took it apart and sliced it into bits and pieces and I was horrified. But after, a certain time in the [00:36:00] business, so to say you, just unfortunately you, have to distance yourself a little bit from, your own music at a certain point, and you just have to give them your music and let them do with it what, they think they need to do. 

[00:36:18] Nigel: That's, I just, the reason I'm [00:36:20] doing these podcasts is because I want people to understand the reality of working in the industry, and that is part of the reality. The other thing I'd like to say is, be brave. You can, it's always good to be brave, I think. I think whoever's commissioning, they never say no to something that actually works, like really works. 

[00:36:39] Nigel: I've, [00:36:40] edited sequences and you go, that sequence is safe because it just works and I like it. And because it works so well, no one's ever gonna pull it apart. And by the same time, I think if you use music, if you're, if you are, if you have the skills and you know what you're trying to do, and you try that's what I teach people [00:37:00] is those skills. 

[00:37:00] Nigel: I think you get the confidence in your own. You have authority about what you're doing and why you're doing it. You can articulate it. So share it with a composer. You can make it clear to anyone why it's happening, but ultimately it has to just work on its own terms. 

[00:37:14] Nigel: Just the confidence to do the thing that works. Before you give in, don't give in too soon. Let's put it like [00:37:20] that.  

[00:37:20] Birger: Absolutely. It can be so beautiful to be brave and explore. Go on that journey together, director and composer. It's can just be a such a wonderful journey.  

[00:37:32] Nigel: I remember on, Fatal attractions that we worked on. 

[00:37:35] Nigel: I think because it works so well and they've had such faith in it and they loved it. So basically your [00:37:40] music was never second guessed. It was like, yes, it works. Whatever burger wants. He knows the series. I think you found that after a while you just composed to it and everyone said, that's great. 

[00:37:49] Nigel: It just works. So you had that freedom. I guess it's a nice position to be in, isn't it?  

[00:37:54] Birger: Definitely. Yes.  

[00:37:56] Birger: So  
 

[00:37:56] Nigel: let's, talk about one other aspect that I think I'll probably be coming to [00:38:00] again and again various people is AI and the new technology. 

[00:38:05] Nigel: Because I know, I don't know the music ai, but I've seen, I've played with all the other ones. You could write in something like, or very, you'd probably be able to do it in two months time if you can't do it now, but give me a drone sound pick a composer in the [00:38:20] start of this, make it do this and it would come up with something that was okay. 

[00:38:27] Nigel: Have you played with those technologies? Have you had a look? And even if you haven't, what's your feeling about that?  

[00:38:36] Birger: I know there's a lot of discussion also in the music [00:38:40] community about AI and, maybe our jobs are threat and and I definitely have to reflect much more on that. 

[00:38:48] Birger: I think that on the basic level, you can probably substitute a lot of music, just the, examples you mentioned, for example with [00:39:00] with, AI to a certain degree. But I have a feeling that the subtleties when, composers and directors discuss a narrative or like the music for, a whole story. 

[00:39:12] Birger: Or like you said, for example, going against the obvious I, still have doubts that AI can, deliver [00:39:20] that sort of complexity and, that sort of conversation that's, going on between director and composers. So I hope that there's still some, time for us as composers too. 

[00:39:30] Nigel: I think. I hope so. For directors too my feeling about this is, at a certain level, it will work fine and you won't notice. But if you're trying to work [00:39:40] at a higher level, the expectations are different and the intention is different, and the skill level you're working at is different and I think the audience will respond and react and recognize, but the truth is there's a huge range in any media. 

[00:39:58] Nigel: Isn't there in terms of quality,[00:40:00] there's 10%, that's unlistenable, 80% that's pretty good. And then another 10%. That's astonishing. But the point is when you get to the very, very highest level you are watching something that comes from a human being. 

[00:40:15] Nigel: And I hope that what it means is you keep striving to become as [00:40:20] good as you can be and then you'll always be outpacing what everyone else is doing with maybe AI and maybe the cliches and maybe the not properly thought through choices. Maybe that's all we can hope for.  

[00:40:36] Birger: Yes, I agree. And maybe in some ways we can [00:40:40] also embrace AI and for, certain things work with it and in really useful ways. 

[00:40:46] Birger: Yeah. But otherwise, I'm really with you. That.  

[00:40:50] Nigel: Great. All right, Berger, thank you so much. It's been a delight talking to you. Thank you very much. Thank, you so much for having me. My pleasure.  

[00:40:59] [00:41:00] I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Birger and found it useful. If you're interested in working with me at The DocFix. All the links you need are in the notes below. There's a case study you could sign up for at apply.thedocfix.com. That goes into some detail on how the system has been used in some of the TV shows and documentaries I've been involved with. [00:41:20] There's a lot of information there you'll find useful.  

[00:41:22] And if you want to get in touch, You can send me an email to nigel@thedocfix.com and I'd be happy to hear from you. And that's the last thing. If you're enjoying this podcast and you want to support the show. And help keep the podcast free and the conversation coming, you could do a number of things.  

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[00:41:57] Have a good rest of the day, and I'll talk to you soon.[00:42:00]