Capturing the Legacy of Superman: Crafting “Super/Man : The Christopher Reeve Story"

Ian Bonhôte and Peter Ettedgui, the creative minds behind "Superman, the Documentary," shed light on their inventive storytelling techniques and the profound life of Christopher Reeve. Together, we explore their decision to weave Reeve's action-packed past with his advocacy-driven present, crafting a narrative that is as compelling as it is emotionally rich. Their film, inspired by Reeve's own memoir, not only celebrates his highs but also honors his resilience alongside his wife, Dana, in overcoming life's formidable challenges.

Our conversation delves into the delicate art of balancing emotion with information in documentary filmmaking. Bonhote and Ettedgui reveal the strategies they used to connect with viewers on a deep level, especially through the lens of Reeve's later life. We discuss the story's universal themes and its social significance, touching upon how Reeve's personal triumphs potentially spurred medical advancements. The recognition of their work at Sundance is a testament to their dedication, and we reflect on the film's capacity to inspire acceptance and love, resonating with audiences today.

In our final discussion, we unpack the intricacies of independent filmmaking and the responsibility of portraying an icon like Reeve. From creative challenges like music selection and visual storytelling to the emotional weight of accessing Reeve's personal archives, Bonhote and Ettedgui share their journey of honouring Reeve's legacy. They express the immense responsibility felt in accurately capturing his essence, supported by Reeve's family and friends. 

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Transcript

0:00:00 - Nigel

Hi, I'm Nigel Levy. In this episode of the DocFix podcast, I talk with the directors of Superman, the Documentary, a feature-length film that tells the life story of Christopher Reeve. 

Reeve was a man who, for many, was the definitive film superhero, but who later had to accept the challenge of a freak accident that left him severely paralysed. The directors, Ian Bonhote and Peter Ettedgi, and I talk about the making of their documentary and how they worked hard to produce a story with universal themes rather than a conventional chronological celebrity biopic. And while I have you please do subscribe if you want to know when the next episode is going to emerge. If you want to find out more about me and how I work with people on their documentary storytelling skills at the DocFix, you can go to apply.thedocfix.com that's apply.thedocfix.com, and of course, there are details in the show notes at the end of this podcast. 

Just one more thing Ian is Swiss and there's one point where his accent could cause a little confusion. It sounds as though he was suggesting that Reeve chose to leave his wife. Actually, he said Reeve chose to live. That's a big change in meaning and I hope Ian will forgive this audio subtitle. 

That said, here's my conversation with Ian and Peter, really lovely to see you both and thanks so much for taking the time, because I know you're incredibly busy and it's lovely to talk about a film that's just come out, that is in the cinema, which is a beautiful thing and there was so much to admire about it. And what I want to talk to you about is how you told it some of the choices you made. You've done it in a very complex and rich and interesting way, and I did read a review that said they didn't make it chronological. That was one of the reviews that pointed out that you'd created a very interesting film. So, if we can start by talking about that process, how did you decide how to tell this story? What choices did you make? 

0:02:00 - Peter

The thing is that when you're doing your biopic, whether it's fiction or non-fiction, or dramatized or documentary, you have the same sorts of choices to make. Do you tell it in a linear way? If not, then how do you? What do you focus on? How do you make it interesting? And with us? 

I think that this was actually, in many respects, quite an obvious choice to make, because you know, if you did it in a linear way, you'd have half or even more than half of the film with this full action star, sort of like, going from film to film and doing a little bit of his sort of civil rights work, human rights work and so on. He would have done it in a very linear way. Then you would have had the last half of the film and he's in a wheelchair, he's had this accident and he's in a wheelchair all the time, and it would have felt like a different film. So the way you get around that, in a sense, is by, sort of like, putting the two things together and seeing the emotional resonance of somebody who loses everything, all of his physicality, all of his natural human powers, let alone superpowers, and is then kind of forced to reconsider his whole life in light of what has happened. There's an emotional quality in that. 

You know, I had to think back to the time when I was whole, when I was healthy, and I think that just having that as the present tense of the film after the accident, looking back at his past is just a very natural way to dig into the story of what the past was. And now he uses the past to impact his own present and future, in a sense, at becoming an advocate for people with disabilities, and so on. Does that? I think? That's all the other thing I should say is that Christopher himself wrote a memoir in which he did sort of like interlace past and present. We then took that on much further, I think, and also we tried to find a cinematic equivalent to accomplish that. 

0:04:04 - Ian

I'd just add that one of the theme, which was heroism, which we settled very early on, it made a lot of sense to have the heroism of the character of superman and the heroism of chris's life post-accident, and how to you know? So, as peter said, it wasn't grand for us, it wasn't groundbreaking to try to do it like this. I think where I'm extremely proud is how successfully worked and how tough it was at times to make, to find those segues and to make it work, because that was a lot of work and a lot of different ways. We tried and it's, in a way, the film we have is, I believe, the best we could have made. Do you see what I mean? It's not every single decision. There's no happy accident, there's no easy accident. It was very, very crafted from all of us. 

0:04:57 - Peter

It's one thing having an idea, a conceptual idea, in documentary, whereas in fiction, obviously, you can write a screenplay With this. You are so dependent on your archive and your interviews and what kind of comes out of that process Finding those segues which you would have written in a second if you were writing a screenplay. To come up with segues that really felt natural or counterpointed or mirrored in some way what was going on in each story and keep the dramatic tension in each of the stories, the past and the present going. 

0:05:29 - Nigel

that was where the the hard craft was in the nicest possible way. It looks crafted. Uh, there are things going on with the themes and the arguments and where the drama is. That doesn't happen by accident and it was a pleasure. I watched it with a pen in hand. I've made more notes. It takes away some of the joy, but I only saw it a few hours ago. 

Here's something I picked up on that wasn't an accident. I am sure Dana and it's Dana, isn't it? You have to get that right. Dana and Chris are very different people and they seem to be to me. There was this conflict between the two of them that came out in many, many beautiful ways. There was a moment when her son read the note in a journal about solitude versus loneliness. She had this holistic way of looking at things. She was much broader and he was very down the line trying to solve his problem by fixing his paralysis. I picked up on that. If it's right, you can let me know. But when you are creating a story like that, what's it like finding the moments in the material that matches what you think the film is actually about? That matches what you think the film is actually about? 

0:06:44 - Ian

There is a little bit of searching and scratching and I think then was not a surprise like, oh, we were looking for a surprise but we didn't know. I didn't know personally so much about his personal relationship. And then when you start digging into the relationship, you're completely right that there is definitely that clash between them twos. But I think what we realize how important she became to him, for him as a human being and for the family. And then how did she become so big and important for the foundation, about what she felt, about caring for people, not only pushing to find a cure and pushing the science forward. And then seeing how she carried on after his passing, I think that love story, that love as a story, is a big thing within our film. 

0:07:34 - Peter

I thought that Christa was so driven and sort of like you know, kind of his focus was laser-like and Dana was somehow more was softer and more expansive in her, which she could afford to be, because of course she was still very much on two legs. And I mean that whole thing about tomorrow's cure that drove Chris. And then, well, what about today's care that drives Dana? Because Dana is the person that most of us would expect to be. We wouldn't necessarily expect to be quadriplegic or a ventilator, but we might be in a situation more easily, potentially, where we are having to care for someone, and so she's immediately identifiable to most people who haven't had an accident like that. But you know, as you say, I mean she was just like. She is such a force of life in the story and she brings to it a kind of a humanity that was really necessary. I still wouldn't necessarily call it conflict there. 

0:08:37 - Nigel

It's just a technical term. It's a technical term, I don't mean fighting. I just mean a character that influences. 

Maybe an influence character is a better technical description but it's just a technical storytelling term of the relationship. They see the world differently. I had a question from someone who wanted to ask you a question and this was very interesting. It was more of a statement because they said the film felt very contemporary and important and it's interesting that that phrase was used. He said someone called Brian said that the importance of family was so important. He talked about the 1996 convention speech that Chris gave. As soon as I heard that, I was trying to reformulate the meaning of it, because when you have a powerful moment, you're trying to understand it, understand the meaning of it, Because when you have a powerful moment you're trying to understand it, understand the significance of it. And he said it felt that family, the statement he was making about family, was saying something about, in opposition to the divisive climate we're in, today, this sense of a unifying family. Did you feel that? When you chose to use that piece, when did it fit for you in the story that you're telling about? 

0:09:50 - Peter

I mean the whole film became about family for us from a very, very early point. I mean, obviously, when you come into a project like this, you're kind of like thinking about it in broad terms. You're thinking, oh, it's a story about the greatest on-screen hero who becomes the greatest off-screen, and you do all of that. But then we started meeting the family and we realized that actually it was as much, if not more, about these three children as it was about Christopher or even Dana at that point. It's a story about a family and that's something that also, because both of us are very family minded, we always put our family onto our work and I think that it was just something that we felt okay. Well, we don't know what it's like, the audience doesn't know what it's like to be Superman, but we all know what it's like to be part of the family, with all of the issues and wonderful things that kind of come out of that. 

0:10:45 - Nigel

This is my point. The reason I asked it, or the question under my question, is the deeper and more authentically emotional you are, the more universal it becomes and it feels present. It feels contemporary because you're talking about a universal truth, Nigel our life. 

0:11:03 - Ian

If you want to describe Ian and Peter, the three lines we say is emotion over information. The three lines we say is emotion over information. Information without emotion is irrelevant and too much information without emotion just goes above your head. It's better to shorten the amount of information. And we feel there's a problem with documentary. Some filmmaker in the documentary space thinks that people don't get enough information from somewhere else. So some stories are not and that's what is many times a journalistic element which really digging into and a lot of people within the documentary culture love that. But sadly, as a producer as well runs a company, those stories they might be but they don't get a broader audience because they've become too informational and the audiences can't emotionally connect to that anymore because they can't take anymore. 

Again, as Peter said, you said earlier, a lot of people can't identify with being a successful actor at 23, 24, being in a half a billion dollar successful movie. For being in a half a billion dollar successful movie. Really few people. Even if you meet the Reeve children, it's hard to identify with people who are two and a half meter high, 10 times smarter than you, 10 times more good looking than you. My wife is like she kept on going on again the other day about Alexandra and she's like, how can she do all of that? And she looks like she's a brilliant mom as well. And you're like you know they do all of that and she looks like she's a brilliant mom as well and you're like you know, they are quite incredible people. Obviously, she's got an amazing partner, garen as well, that is very present with the family, so when she's absent she is there and vice versa. But they are quite phenomenal as human beings. 

0:12:44 - Peter

They're quite. You know, I think it's again. I think it's contemporary because it's very human. We were just talking to somebody from spinal research not-for-profit organization that helps people with spinal cord injuries and you know we were sort of actually contrasting people who acquire a disability. It's very different to being born with a disability. 

If you're born with a disability, whatever that might be it might be that you are deaf, it might be that you are paraplegic, you have spina bifida or something like that. 

That's very different to what happened to Christopher or what happens to millions of people who have accidents in all spheres of life and of course, the natural human response to that is I want to get better, I want to do things again, I want to go back to how I was. That's a very human thing and of course, that's going to be your psychological focus. I think for Dana, she could empathize with that, but she had to deal with having your most special person in your life not be able to do a thing for himself without a team of people around them. So she's having to deal with that and I think the reason that bifurcation tomorrow's cure and today's care that was very much because she was having to deal with today's care and she knew that hundreds of thousands of other people caring for people who just suffered an accident of that kind, that she was representing them and Christopher was representing the people who wanted to get fixed as it were. 

0:14:12 - Ian

There's one moment, though, I think and we start the film like this so sometime at the end of the film you forget that he was there the fact he decided to leave, the fact that she tells you I love you you're the person there's an eye light on her about making him take that decision. But he decides to leave. Do you see what I mean, nigel? He decides. So we can criticize chris you know people from the disability community can criticize, but chris has decided to try to fight it. But for me, chris having accepted to leave and then that his decision is to survive we were discussing it earlier he pushed himself so much to try to find a solution he died within nine years. He sacrificed, exercising on the vent because he wanted to go and direct a film and, just like the way you know, at the time, all the exercises he went imposing on himself were groundbreaking things. You know he was a guinea pig and the impact on his body and the impact on his health is not quite understood yet. Do you see what I mean? So he didn't stay behind and just like how I'm raising money and try to find solution. 

You know we didn't use that completely, but will said one time that any drugs, anything that would happen is that would have taken it, and he was even jealous of rats in the lab, the rats in the lab that he would have wanted to be. You know him, yeah, you know. Some rats managed to walk. Again, he wanted to be a rat in the lab. Try everything on me and even if I you know he would never have maybe completely said that, but he would have gone to as far as possible to get walking. Get better is the wrong term, but he wanted to try to walk and with the purpose of walking he might have improved many things for other people along the way. So I think it's still very positive. That's why we wanted to try. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. 

0:16:02 - Nigel

Just to circle back slightly, that phrase you are still you and I love you. I did make a note of it as it went by and it is the kind of phrase that you know is a very contemporary one in terms of acceptance. It's said a lot now, I'm sure, so that did resonate with me. You structured and wove the themes through your story beautifully well. I know it was picked up at Sundance. Congratulations for that. Now, were there any changes that you could make to it because it was picked up? 

We'll be back with ian and peter in a moment, but I just wanted to jump in and remind you about the docfix storytelling program, which is the reason why I'm recording these interviews with great documentary storytellers. If you want to find out more about the program, which is there to help anyone who's struggling to turn an idea into a great story, you can go to apply.thedotfix.com. I'll send you a case study where I go over exactly the process I use when working as a producer, director and story fixer on feature films and series, including Netflix's series F1, drive to Survive, and script writing for David Attenborough. Of course, if you have any questions at all, get in touch and I'll be glad to help. Now back to Ian and Peter and the impact of a small documentary being acquired by a major film studio at Sundance. 

0:17:22 - Peter

I mean, you're absolutely right to pick up on this and it's something we're very keen to highlight, because I think that the perception now oh God, it's DC Studios on the front of it. You know, obviously this is somehow part of the new DC rebrand and that, you know, kind of harbinger of the next Superman film and all of that. Nothing could be further from the truth. For a start, we the film was made entirely independently, for a pretty low budget, frankly, and you know, we got to a point when we submitted it to Sundance. It was the film we wanted to make. We didn't, you know, want to. That was it from our point of view. We love being in a situation with we're quite disciplined about this. Picture lock means picture lock, you don't? We don't want anyone to open the film up after that, because it's the film that we want to make. And we kind of got to a point where we landed it with our various executives and financiers on the films. That was pictured up. That's what went to Sundance. It did not change. 

After Sundance. We had an old school bidding war that started in the car park after our screening, which was really wonderful, and I remember I can't remember who one of the other builders said was there anything, anything you'd want to change? And we said, no, not really. The thing I suppose we were worried about with Warners is that somehow they would want to give us a whole set of notes and so on. Couldn't be further from the truth. They absolutely loved it as it was. They didn't want us to touch anything. I think the only thing we did was put the DC logo on the front of it and replace our own logos with DC and HBO, and CNN. 

0:18:52 - Ian

When we did the archive and when we licensed the archive, we were not allowed because we actually got in touch with DC and Warner. But we couldn't use anything from Superman in the promotional aspect of the film if we had sold it to somebody else. So that didn't make us choose Warner, but in a way it was a consideration. Yeah, and from the start we wanted to call the film Superman. We did the slash and we always thought you need the slash in or make it slightly different for copyright issues. So you know, nigel, we were constantly thinking about Warner in the back of our heads. 

0:19:29 - Nigel

You're dealing with a huge property, an intellectual property, aren't you? 

0:19:34 - Ian

So you know big questions, it's really risky from a financial because as an independent to as a producer we were. I don't think you know completely. If Warner had had a problem with it, I don't know how it would have turned out because we would have been badly seen of them to try to stop it if he had gone to another distributors. But I slept much better afterwards. Yeah, I can imagine. 

0:20:03 - Peter

I mean, something that is quite interesting on this is just that we were, I mean, we got every single frame of archive and millimeter of music that we could out of them and we tried to get more and they said, don't push your luck. 

That was, this is all before sundance and we had to sign everything off before sundance. And there was a point where we kind of came back and I kind thinking, god, there's one piece of music of John Williams' score that I would love to have used in the cut and Ilan had actually we had it in at one point and we were told we couldn't have it. And Ilan, our composer, had kind of like stitched together in a very last minute way a couple of his other cues and he put it on and I was determined we were going to go back to john williams and actually we played the two clips with john williams and with elan's music just for ourselves to sort of like, so that we could make a decision on it, and elan's music was so much more appropriate actually for the film ultimately at that point. At that point, yeah, and because you know, in a sense elon's music is christopher's voice and john williams music is superman- so john williams would have looked. 

0:21:17 - Ian

Sorry, nigel would have sounded. This is a piece of archive where what we've done a lot through is that we use archive and recompose it to our own purposes in terms of storytelling and by using Ilan's music. There, ilan, where we came from the scene before and where we go afterwards, make more narrative and emotional sense. 

0:21:38 - Peter

Necessity is the mother of invention, isn't it? And he works better. You actually realize you're not going to be able to use that piece of footage or that piece of music or whatever, and you have to kind of come up with a solution. 

0:21:49 - Ian

And that's going to lead to your next question, Nigel, because you were going to talk about the statues. 

0:21:53 - Nigel

So tell me about the imagery we're talking about, that beautiful graphic sequence. Ian, were you more responsible? 

0:21:59 - Ian

I'm not taking anything away from the relationship, but as a visual stylist and look Peter's sitting right back in the frame as a visual stylist no, I don't think so, because I think I think what's kind of a bit weird and in a way very leaky but between ourselves is, I think, if you look at our two backgrounds and where we come from, yes, you could assume visually or potentially narratively, because Peter has more credit as a writer, but I think we discuss everything and we learn very quickly, over three movies as well, about how we work together and what our film needs. And when we saw we were making the title sequence, we saw how much we could travel through it, moving the camera around and you know, with documentary a lot of it is quite static because you don't have, you don't shoot a crane shot, so you don't have CG. You know, like physical effects as much, you could do it, but that's not. The 3D and the CGI allowed us to be more cinematic and more creative like this, which we kind of like. 

0:23:14 - Peter

Did he play? Because he's been very modest. I will just say that I mean he has a wonderful visual imagination. And just to take a little case in point, you know we discussed the idea of the statue with Passion Pictures' CG department and they, who are fantastic, brought so much to it. They showed us one of their first sketches of Superman, sort of in flight, as it were. Ian took I think they showed it on an iPad and Ian literally sort of like turned it upside down and suddenly Superman was falling. I mean that sounds so obvious but actually it's not that obvious. 

0:23:50 - Nigel

It gave us that notion of rising and falling and Did you have any other visual ideas that you considered but dropped? I know because the visual palette was fairly simple in it. 

0:24:03 - Peter

That's partly a function of budget, I have to say. This was not made for very much money, this film, so I think it behoves us to be really quite responsible and disciplined about the way that we think about that. 

0:24:14 - Ian

And it's better one idea achieved to its highest standard that loads of half house done. You know, and we both watch documentaries in the past Maybe the story is great and it's very good, but we feel visually it's just not quite there. And you know, it's the budget. But sadly you can't go around the audience and say, oh sorry, the visuals are not quite great because we didn't have the money. So it's about as well being quite disciplined with ourselves and try to push. I shot a lot of music videos and you have very limited budget. So you have to stretch your budget within one day and you have to come up with and even if I didn't do CGI in my music video, it's the same thing If we can do one statue, how can we stretch that statue? And the other thing we like to have a visual identity that tie up the film and if that motif comes back, it's got something quite amazing. 

0:25:11 - Nigel

Of course there is a resonance that grows, it develops its own, it carries its own weight and meaning through the film we're thinking about this stuff from literally from from day one. 

0:25:24 - Peter

I mean, we're looking at another project in maryland and you know we we're more interested in talking about what we could do with a camera than then actually what archive we're going to find, because we know we're going to find the archive. I think that where we lucked out with Superman is there was so much fantastic archive so we didn't. You know, we never felt the lack of rushes. 

0:25:46 - Nigel

Yeah For better word. I mean clearly there is a richness to what you've done because it allows us to have a conversation that could go in all sorts of directions, about things that are in your film. So you put them in the film. They're there to be talked about and discussed, which makes it a really good film. It's saying something with the material, but there was a line, another line about how Christopher Reeve approached tackling Superman, the role that he took a popular form seriously as art. You know it's how you do it. You can take anything and do it with authenticity and seriousness and not lose anyone from that, and you've done that with this film. 

0:26:29 - Ian

You know it's a popular subject about a popular person, but you took it seriously we knew when we started looking at his life post-accident that the legacy he's left after that still has an impact right now through the children and the money to raise and the foundation. It's I won't lie, it's the Superman aspect of it, despite you know, we both said, oh my God, how cool it is to do the original story of Superman Very quickly. It was the least interesting and the least important. Said oh my god, how cool it is to do the the original story of superman very quickly was the least interesting and the least one very quick thing about that. 

0:27:04 - Peter

You know, the thing is that when we made rising phoenix, we burned with that subject. That was something that we were just became passionate about and the release, uh of it was disappointing, to be frank, and I think ultimately it wasn't our fault, the film's fault, netflix's fault. It was covered, basically, well, coven as well. But I think also there was a real problem with getting audiences to engage with disability, which you know one can understand, you know if there's got a choice. But when you have a superhero story, effectively with a disability, you know when you've got Superman acquiring it, then it's a totally different thing. So I think that that popular cultural element of the story is what allowed us to sort of smuggle in the much harder stuff that Chris goes through. 

0:27:54 - Nigel

One last question. You're dealing with everyone's memories. You're telling a story of someone who everyone already has an opinion of. How hard is that for you? Every person in your audience has their own version of who Christopher Reeve was and what Superman meant to them. 

0:28:12 - Ian

If you're from a certain generation, as a child, I think you just have to make your own version. I think it'd be really arrogant to say that it's the film. It's exactly Christopher Reeve and we'll never say that. But I think the reaction from the family, the children, the friends and everyone who watch it for them it feels as close as they remembered him, they remembered the relationship with Dana, they remembered all the things. So I think it's more about both of us thinking we have made the film we think is the right way to emotionally connect with chris. We always feel really responsible of everyone sharing the memories with us because we didn't live with chris. We didn't lose him in 2004 when he died. 

We were not the close friend, frank, we might have read about it and felt like, oh, that's really sad. Like you read, you know. But the children, the Senator Kerry, the Whoopi Goldberg, the Suzanne Sarandon, all those famous people and then the other member of the family, the people that were closely with them from the assistance and stuff those people were there every day. Those people's life was for maybe 12 hours a day or even more. They were connected with Chris. So when Chris disappeared, that really affected them and us. We really feel like we can't do anything anymore. Chris is not with us, but we can do justice and hold a very high standard from ourselves, and I ask a lot from myself to make sure that everyone who remains still feel that we've carried the legacy properly and the legacy through this film. Their names, meaning Dana and Chris is well respected and will be put in the right light. I think that's something emotionally, we feel extremely passionate and extremely responsible. 

0:29:58 - Peter

Absolutely. But we do. We really do our work. We don't just rely on what we're told. We spent a long time with his paper archives so we read everything from his university essays to his journal, the journal that he kept while he was going through therapy after he broke up from gay to. You know, we've read a lot of material in the family archives and you know, you kind of start getting the measure of someone and getting an instinct for who they are. You know where the flaws as well as the virtues were, and we really wanted to make sure that the film shows the man in full as much as possible. So, you know, I think, yeah, you're right when somebody else could come along and probably make a very different portrayal of Christopher Reeve, but I kind of feel that we were true to something. 

0:30:42 - Ian

Yeah, what we set out to do and I think we have to give credit to people who came and asked us to do it, because it didn't originate with us. But even the children did their own work about the potential directors that would be tackling the story of the family and they had seen our films and they really felt we were the right people. Then we met and we got on like house on fire. But and I think that's right you have to find the right directors to do the right story. You have to find the right writers. You know it's not everyone. You know there are stories Me and Peter, we look at it, not for us. We, if we want. You know there are stories me and Peter, we look at it, not for us. We're very quick. We, you know, between Rising Phoenix and Superman. Rising Phoenix came in August 2020. We now, you know Superman is going to be in the cinema in the UK the 1st of November 2024. It's four years between the two films. There's no one else doing it for us. It's not true. 

0:31:33 - Nigel

Don't say that. Don't say that, peter and Ian. Thank you so much for giving me the time to talk so beautifully about a film, a beautiful, rich, interesting documentary. I'm sure it'll do wonderfully well in the UK, as it has done everywhere else in the world. So good luck with it thank you very much. 

0:31:49 - Peter

Thanks, nigel. 

0:31:51 - Nigel

I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Ian and Peter and found it useful. If you're interested in working with me at the DocFix, all the links you need are in the notes below. There's a case study you could sign up for at apply.thedocfix.com that goes into some detail on how the system has been used in some of the TV shows and documentaries I've been involved with. There's a lot of information there you'll find useful. And if you want to get in touch, you can send me an email to nigel@thedocfix.com and I'd be happy to hear from you. 

And as a last thing, if you're enjoying this podcast and you want to support the show and help keep the podcast free and the conversations coming, you could do a number of things. One is just to share it with someone who you think would benefit from it and number two, take some time to leave a review. If you leave a review for the show on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, it just helps the algorithm to get in front of the people who could benefit from it the most. So that's all I've got for you on today's episode. Have a good rest of the day. I'll talk to you soon. 

Transcribed by https://podium.page